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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 84 the 30th of april 2010

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80 good heavens episode 80 only 20 more

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episodes until the huge 100 hang on to

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your false teeth for that one what a

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show we have for you this week are we

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going to kick off with an interview that

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Kylie has done with such wonderful

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bloggers as Colford watch gimpy and

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brain duck oh yes all will become clear

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they're going to be talking about the

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work they've done in exposing door now

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door was a program a sort of

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pseudoscience that was supposed to help

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dyslexic children and children with

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learning difficulties by getting them to

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balance and juggle and do all sorts of

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wacky things very interesting

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conversation coming up that's followed

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by a grain of salt with Iran so gift

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talking to David Aaron ovitch about

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conspiracy theories conspiracies all

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that sort of thing but before we get

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into the show for those of you who don't

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know a good skeptic in Australia has

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passed away sadly Jeff Clark now many of

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you will certainly know the name of Jeff

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Clark he with his son Theo put together

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the book the skeptics field guide to

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humbug spotting logical fallacies and

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thinking and the fantastic website

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hunting humbug 101 and the podcast to of

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course very very sad to hear that Jeff

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Clark has passed away and very grateful

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for all the work he did with his son

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Theo in teaching us all how to spot

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logical fallacies and I'll just hand

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over now to Kylie Sturgis who will give

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a short report about Jeff I first met

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Jeff Clark at the 2006 Australian

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skeptics national convention in

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Melbourne Victoria we were at the same

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table for the dinner and I mentioned I'd

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seen his website and

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recognized his name when he introduced

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himself we only talked briefly but he

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remained in my mind as an example of an

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enthusiastic skeptic who was very keen

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to use the internet to connect with

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people which was something that was very

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much in its early stages in Australian

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skepticism back then I think he was

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surprised that I recognized his name

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from the online book humbug which was

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one of the few hits that i found when

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searching for what resources skeptics

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had online back then Richard Saunders

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hadn't even started the skeptics own

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podcast it was only a year later that

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the tank vodcast began I don't recall

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meeting Jeff after that time but his son

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Theo presented at bris skepticon or the

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Australian skeptics national convention

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in 2009 by this time the hunting humbug

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podcast was well into development and

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Thea reflected his father's enthusiasm

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by demonstrating the use of google wave

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and Twitter in his talk about fallacies

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and there is an archive of that

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presentation featured on the site Jeff

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was probably best known amongst fellow

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online skeptics as the co-host of

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hunting humbug 101 which is a podcaster

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provides a crash course and shooting

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down bad arguments looking at fallacies

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from pseudo science science

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misconceptions politics philosophy and

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the media after a second battle with

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cancer he died earlier this month I

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regret that I did not get to know Jeff

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Clark more but he certainly contributed

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a significant body of material to

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Australian skepticism episode 35 the

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best of Jeff is available on the humbug

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site it also contains a link to all the

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back issues of the Australian skeptic

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magazine where he contributed numerous

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articles the official site of hunting

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humbug is hunting humbug 101 podbean

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calm Thank You Kylie for that very sad

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Jeff Clark file a Jeff Clark but let's

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press on with this week's show the

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I'm Carly Sturgis and I'm talking to

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holford watch gimpy and brain duck in

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this interview i'll be talking to these

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science bloggers about their websites

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but most importantly we're going to be

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talking about door I first met these

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people online by a dr. ben goldacre site

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and i have continued to work with them

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via my own site odd black calm we were

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all congratulated by dr. goldacre in the

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Guardian newspaper in 2008 for our joint

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efforts documenting the administration

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of the door company in Australia in an

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article called determined bloggers who

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blew the whistle on door specifically we

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all look at claims that about

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pseudoscience and learning difficulties

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which is where door comes into it the

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door program claims to treat dyslexia

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and other learning difficulties and has

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aroused controversy amongst researchers

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and doctors in Britain and elsewhere it

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consists of a series of exercises which

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are claimed to help develop the

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functions of the cerebellum you may have

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noticed that hopefully watch gimpy and

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brain duck do not use their real names

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in this interview or on their blog sites

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this is not new for many bloggers we can

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point to the example of author and

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blogger Belle de Jour who only recently

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outted herself as the scientists book

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McGann tea within skeptical circles

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there's the blog of the poet digital

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cuttlefish the recent you're not helping

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site an even or ack of science blogs

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prefers not to have his real identity

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widely discussed earlier in my series of

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interviews for the skeptic zone I spoke

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to the YouTube video creator hot hole of

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54 about his reasons for anonymity in

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the case of these three bloggers the

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legal ramifications in the UK

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particularly the litigious nature of the

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door company has led them to take the

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step of not revealing their now

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during this interview due to technical

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difficulties the blogger brain duck

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could only join in via text messages so

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I apologize for not having her voice

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included in this in here thank you very

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much for joining me ladies and gentlemen

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what we have here is a very unique

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interview because none of you are going

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to use your real names so i have here

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gympie from kim PS blog i have Halford

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watch from the whole furred watch blog

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and joining us by proxy using the typing

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function on skype we have brain duck so

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thank you very much all of you for

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joining me thank you great so let's

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begin from the beginning gympie how do

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you describe your blog and why do you

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blog well um my blog at the moment sort

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of goes through phases and at the moment

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I blog more on the regulation of

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alternative medicine or rather the

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arguments proponents of alternative

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medicine make when they are making the

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case for their regulation I've also been

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having a look at the the ethical issues

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involved with homeopathy particularly

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with respect to how they function in the

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developing world where there are not so

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strict safeguards on the government the

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the practice of medicine um I've also

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been taking a more recent look at

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charities involved in promoting

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alternative health which includes the

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princes foundation for integrated health

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who are having a few difficulties at the

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moment and when I first started blogging

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it was I was I think I was more

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interested in directly challenging the

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claims of quacks with their science but

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I I've come to realize time that there's

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really very little point in this and

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challenging them directly because they

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just do not listen it's more interesting

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to explain o.o to to investigate the

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ethical issues which arise from somebody

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has a strong belief in alternative

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medicine

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they try and present their alternative

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beliefs as being parallel to mainstream

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medical practice we just had brain duck

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join in with her comment about her blog

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she says that she started to blog to

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practice communication skills to use

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with patients and to help me learn more

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and share what I was doing as a part of

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my psychology degree in York people

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asking you awkward questions is a great

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way to learn so I guess it's not only

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the patients that you might deal with

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and common public but also people in the

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media that you're communicating with as

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well it's certainly true it's difficult

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to judge the impact of an anonymous blog

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because you can get feedback in the

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comments but I mean I suppose what we're

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all trying to do is create a sort of

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semi permanent digital record and

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counteracting most claims that people

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make I mean I suppose ultimately that's

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the root of my motivation for blogging

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it's just the frustration you feel when

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somebody's wrong and you know they're

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wrong and you just want to tell somebody

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so how would you describe your blog

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holford watch I sure as him there's a

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few I'm a few people contributing to the

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blog we were set up in response to some

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quite probably quite problematic

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scientific claims made by the by the

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nutritionist patrick holford this does

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because starting to feel an extent there

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can be little patience with to simply

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pointing out again and again that the

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same claim that the same claim is wrong

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and it's still wrong when it's made an

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owl and it's still going to be one was

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made in getting too into in two weeks

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time I mean things like you still here

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even argue against vaccination or penny

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about are the mercury in MMR whereas in

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there in ever contained it has been

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making point out number of times but it

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still continues as a memo as a meme of

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source so does the blogging that we do

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now is around it's going to put its kind

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of focus around around health

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information and advil and research and

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looking at some of the representation

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the practice any ethics of of the search

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and the condom and the kind of broader

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in the kind of bored of impact impact

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this can have so at least if someone's

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repeatedly making the same ink Yvette's

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claim it means that if someone blogs

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about this if the journalists Google's

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them for writing a story on it they'll

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at least be able to access the record of

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whether it was made in the past why is

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inaccurate and be able to question why

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the claims still being made today one

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particular group that I continue to get

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hits for his door and that was where we

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first met when we started up a sort of a

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loose conglomeration called translucent

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science what led all of us to be

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interested in door in the first place I

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have ducked down here with her response

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I also started blogging about door

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because I was fed up with them trying to

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use people who pointed out that their

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research really wasn't up to scratch

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they tried to sue parent associations

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including off spelled in Australia as

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well as individual parents and academics

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and this over research which I as an

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undergraduate could pick holes in I

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thought there was something that smelt

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wrong there and the closer I looked the

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otter it all got how do you feel about

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the experience gimpy well actually

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blogging about door is is more personal

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for me and because the door is a charity

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which claims to be able to if not cure

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then certainly alleviate the West

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symptoms are various specific learning

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00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:53,230
difficulties and they've also expanded

276
00:12:59,610 --> 00:12:55,510
this to include Asperger's spectrum

277
00:13:02,819 --> 00:12:59,620
disorders and ADHD as well now I have a

278
00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:02,829
variety of specific learning disorders

279
00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:05,860
which mean I struggled greatly with my

280
00:13:12,420 --> 00:13:08,920
spelling and with my writing and with a

281
00:13:14,699 --> 00:13:12,430
pen or pencil anyway and computer solves

282
00:13:16,829 --> 00:13:14,709
most of these problems but when I was at

283
00:13:20,819 --> 00:13:16,839
school and growing up I wasn't diagnosed

284
00:13:23,129 --> 00:13:20,829
until I was in my my mid-teens and i

285
00:13:26,550 --> 00:13:23,139
also had these difficulties at school

286
00:13:29,189 --> 00:13:26,560
but i was academically capable but

287
00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:29,199
perceived as being lazy which I suppose

288
00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:32,230
is the the plasticware dislikes people

289
00:13:39,610 --> 00:13:34,550
feel often before the diagnosed

290
00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:39,620
and it was some time ago so i think the

291
00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:41,510
ignorance on the part of my teachers at

292
00:13:46,930 --> 00:13:44,660
school can be excused and i have no

293
00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:46,940
bitterness about it but I I think I I

294
00:13:52,319 --> 00:13:49,640
have appreciation for what it's like to

295
00:13:56,290 --> 00:13:52,329
struggle with them specific learning

296
00:13:59,920 --> 00:13:56,300
difficulties and what door do is to take

297
00:14:02,560 --> 00:13:59,930
advantage of people's struggles and to

298
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:02,570
offer them sort of a false hope through

299
00:14:13,030 --> 00:14:10,690
scenes and they charge an awful lot of

300
00:14:15,370 --> 00:14:13,040
money for this it's normally around a

301
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:15,380
thousand thousand pounds for for a

302
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:18,290
course of door and that is money which

303
00:14:22,509 --> 00:14:20,570
parents could be spending on things like

304
00:14:24,180 --> 00:14:22,519
computers and software to aid their

305
00:14:28,449 --> 00:14:24,190
children if they have these difficulties

306
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:28,459
so what makes me so angry about door is

307
00:14:32,620 --> 00:14:30,500
that they charge an awful lot of money

308
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:32,630
for something which lacks an evidence

309
00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:35,120
base and it takes advantage of people

310
00:14:40,930 --> 00:14:38,260
who are in a very difficult situation on

311
00:14:43,180 --> 00:14:40,940
how about yourself Harvard watch how did

312
00:14:45,940 --> 00:14:43,190
you feel about it no way there's there's

313
00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:45,950
huge numbers of treatment very specific

314
00:14:49,780 --> 00:14:47,180
learning difficulties we started have a

315
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:49,790
good evidence base but what made what

316
00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:52,970
made store stand out for me was it was a

317
00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:55,670
couple of things personally the way

318
00:14:59,769 --> 00:14:57,290
they've been assisting they've been so

319
00:15:01,810 --> 00:14:59,779
successful in attracting in attracting

320
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:01,820
media coverage of the marketing what

321
00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:04,570
they do as a type as something with this

322
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:08,510
something with this with scientific of a

323
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:11,600
search beta search basis to it so on I

324
00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:13,730
mean for at least I thought there was

325
00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:16,310
never too challenging what they do

326
00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:19,310
whereas for some treatments which are

327
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:23,270
just one per one person in there in

328
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:25,040
there in there shed with some slightly

329
00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:27,680
strange ideas may not of having words

330
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:30,490
make the same amount of time criticizing

331
00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:34,640
but also I think I long something along

332
00:15:38,259 --> 00:15:36,440
the lines of all gimpy was saying I

333
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:38,269
think the aspects of tour would show

334
00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:40,610
particularly with Richie really

335
00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:43,160
particularly problematic there's not

336
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:51,220
sebo but it's not a particularly nice

337
00:15:57,699 --> 00:15:54,560
time nice type of receiver either this

338
00:16:01,320 --> 00:15:57,709
veal difficulties nabil opportunity cost

339
00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:01,330
with we get your child particularly will

340
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:04,190
get a chance to do these exercises for

341
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:06,950
10 for 10 minutes twice twice a day a

342
00:16:12,250 --> 00:16:09,410
couple of years meticulous um sure

343
00:16:14,350 --> 00:16:12,260
pacifica pacifically difficulties most

344
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:14,360
specialist tomorrow to do struggle to do

345
00:16:21,579 --> 00:16:18,649
this and give a skimpy mentioned it's

346
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:21,589
not a cheap program either the cost can

347
00:16:26,740 --> 00:16:25,100
be incredibly incredibly significant for

348
00:16:30,220 --> 00:16:26,750
the families of individual seduced you

349
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:30,230
choose to buy into this and to dilute

350
00:16:35,019 --> 00:16:31,910
out declines please do that to do that

351
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:35,029
to children just did not seem good no no

352
00:16:39,579 --> 00:16:37,040
it's very much targeting those who are

353
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:39,589
quite vulnerable in society duck has

354
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:42,410
added to this double basically screen

355
00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:44,450
for children who are always going to do

356
00:16:48,550 --> 00:16:46,550
well they choose only those whose

357
00:16:51,790 --> 00:16:48,560
parents can keep up the regular twice

358
00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:51,800
daily treatments and demand 95%

359
00:16:56,740 --> 00:16:54,230
compliance with treatments even HIV

360
00:16:58,600 --> 00:16:56,750
medication does not get that it's a huge

361
00:17:00,190 --> 00:16:58,610
opportunity cost so she certainly

362
00:17:03,819 --> 00:17:00,200
agreeing with you there Holford watch

363
00:17:06,370 --> 00:17:03,829
she adds they pretend they have lots of

364
00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:06,380
scientific evidence and sell it as being

365
00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:08,660
very medical but this is just not the

366
00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:11,000
case they've taken some very decent

367
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:13,280
basic research at sheffield and pushed

368
00:17:17,439 --> 00:17:15,410
it far beyond where it can be justified

369
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:17,449
oh since it one of the interesting

370
00:17:21,549 --> 00:17:19,130
things about dora's with many

371
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:21,559
alternative medicines is that the people

372
00:17:26,770 --> 00:17:23,510
who practice it and those who believe it

373
00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:26,780
they are very genuine I mean they

374
00:17:31,419 --> 00:17:29,480
genuinely want to help children who have

375
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:31,429
these difficulties there is no doubt

376
00:17:39,630 --> 00:17:36,050
about that but the trouble is they I

377
00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:39,640
think they lack an understanding of how

378
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:42,140
medical research scientific research

379
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:45,170
works where it's not simply enough to

380
00:17:49,540 --> 00:17:46,820
have a good idea that you build yourself

381
00:17:52,690 --> 00:17:49,550
into believing is true you have to

382
00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:52,700
establish an evidence base that can be

383
00:17:58,270 --> 00:17:56,270
replicated and this leads on from ducks

384
00:18:00,680 --> 00:17:58,280
palm two beds them in the scientific

385
00:18:03,620 --> 00:18:00,690
evidence and pushing it beyond

386
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:03,630
the point at which it can be justified

387
00:18:10,850 --> 00:18:08,700
and there were almost looking for

388
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:10,860
confirmation of their beliefs from this

389
00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:12,960
research and they just take it too far

390
00:18:19,190 --> 00:18:17,130
and I think because they don't want to

391
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:19,200
abandon their ideas that occasionally

392
00:18:25,850 --> 00:18:22,650
leads them into am problematic behaviors

393
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:25,860
duck is added to that she says that they

394
00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:28,410
claim to treat very many conditions when

395
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:30,750
their original research was not even on

396
00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:33,600
children who have dyslexia they say that

397
00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:35,190
if you get better or worse during the

398
00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:38,130
treatment it's down to door and if you

399
00:18:43,580 --> 00:18:40,140
get better for two years after finishing

400
00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:43,590
door that's down to door too so child

401
00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:45,540
gets better at something in four years

402
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:48,780
then it's still because of door that

403
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:50,970
seems really quite overwhelming

404
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:52,650
certainly in terms of trying to

405
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:54,960
challenge what is going on and it's

406
00:18:59,690 --> 00:18:56,690
worth mentioning their parents may also

407
00:19:02,720 --> 00:18:59,700
put additional resources into education

408
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:02,730
so for example charl does door payment

409
00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:04,650
pen having subsequently pays for

410
00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:06,480
personal tutor and child gets better

411
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:08,700
which is supposedly because of door the

412
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:10,110
other thing is quite striking with door

413
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:12,360
with those use of scientific evidence is

414
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:15,690
they make questionable steps at a number

415
00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:19,110
of stages so firstly there's some

416
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:20,700
interesting evidence around around

417
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:22,410
dyslexia specific learning difficulties

418
00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:24,510
in the cerebellum but nothing to wish

419
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:26,460
kind but nothing definitive to prove

420
00:19:31,430 --> 00:19:29,250
with us that's the cause of it but then

421
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:31,440
a second but then a second step they

422
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:35,130
take is to argue that because they

423
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:36,330
believe the table and place the

424
00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:39,330
significant role that's they've got that

425
00:19:43,130 --> 00:19:41,190
particular exercise is going to are

426
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:43,140
going to be able to treat it there's not

427
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:45,360
sufficient evidence provided for this

428
00:19:50,090 --> 00:19:47,850
but for what I believe is the cause of

429
00:19:52,540 --> 00:19:50,100
what they're treating and there's and

430
00:19:54,650 --> 00:19:52,550
there's considered less evident right

431
00:19:57,580 --> 00:19:54,660
provided that the treatment actually

432
00:20:00,740 --> 00:19:57,590
doesn't assign there's anything useful

433
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:00,750
brain dark adds to that yes door tell

434
00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:02,370
them that they must have extra tuition

435
00:20:07,310 --> 00:20:05,190
alongside the door program or they won't

436
00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:07,320
get better at reading and writing they

437
00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:09,660
use proxy endpoints they tell people

438
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:11,820
that if you can juggle beanbags better

439
00:20:15,580 --> 00:20:14,090
you are cured and of course

440
00:20:17,380 --> 00:20:15,590
course after two years of juggling

441
00:20:19,570 --> 00:20:17,390
beanbags it gets you better at juggling

442
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:19,580
beanbags so this must be very

443
00:20:24,519 --> 00:20:22,250
disempowering to the children absolutely

444
00:20:27,750 --> 00:20:24,529
and is it and the whole whole approach

445
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:27,760
to potentially disappearing this idea of

446
00:20:31,299 --> 00:20:29,510
specific learning difficulties is

447
00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:31,309
something which had which wich out which

448
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:34,190
has to be cured and the I what it has to

449
00:20:39,130 --> 00:20:36,650
be at least has retreated and the idea

450
00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:39,140
that if people with specific learning

451
00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:41,270
difficulties succeeded doing things that

452
00:20:46,419 --> 00:20:43,820
this is that this is a sign that they're

453
00:20:47,769 --> 00:20:46,429
somehow being being cured and be able to

454
00:20:49,659 --> 00:20:47,779
move beyond the specific learning

455
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:49,669
difficulties lower than figs out but

456
00:20:52,899 --> 00:20:50,720
they've been able to develop good coping

457
00:20:55,899 --> 00:20:52,909
good coping strategies in order to

458
00:20:58,450 --> 00:20:55,909
progress yes brain duck is writing a

459
00:21:01,450 --> 00:20:58,460
very big yes in response to that now

460
00:21:03,789 --> 00:21:01,460
gympie has said about how the people who

461
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:03,799
work with door who are within the door

462
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:05,510
company often believe that they're

463
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:07,610
giving genuine help and this was

464
00:21:12,669 --> 00:21:09,770
something that we discovered back when

465
00:21:14,860 --> 00:21:12,679
wheel bloggers in 2008 we were all

466
00:21:17,049 --> 00:21:14,870
compared by dr. ben goldacre in the

467
00:21:20,049 --> 00:21:17,059
Guardian newspaper when compared to the

468
00:21:23,159 --> 00:21:20,059
mainstream media coverage of door we win

469
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:23,169
on timeliness accuracy relevant ethics

470
00:21:30,570 --> 00:21:26,710
effort and stupid names so what exactly

471
00:21:33,549 --> 00:21:30,580
happened in regards to the changes in

472
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:33,559
2008 to the status of door in Australia

473
00:21:39,669 --> 00:21:37,250
and what did we do it's very nice very

474
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:39,679
nice of them both it's just taking an

475
00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:43,610
interest in things which maybe other

476
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,529
people don't I mean it's just filling

477
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:47,360
this is the great thing by blogs is they

478
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:49,370
allow you to fill a vacuum of knowledge

479
00:21:55,060 --> 00:21:51,679
with your own interests and in the case

480
00:21:56,529 --> 00:21:55,070
of door I mean this is there's a lot of

481
00:21:57,519 --> 00:21:56,539
people out there who have specific

482
00:22:00,519 --> 00:21:57,529
learning difficulties and may be

483
00:22:02,919 --> 00:22:00,529
targeted by door but um it's interesting

484
00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:02,929
to see how door have changed since then

485
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:07,460
because shortly after we really started

486
00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:09,520
blogging intensively on them they

487
00:22:14,919 --> 00:22:12,350
underwent some financial difficulties

488
00:22:17,230 --> 00:22:14,929
due to their business model which I

489
00:22:20,139 --> 00:22:17,240
think goes back to them being motivated

490
00:22:23,889 --> 00:22:20,149
out of a genuine willingness to help is

491
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:23,899
that they hadn't really thought through

492
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:25,970
their business plan or rather they had

493
00:22:27,910 --> 00:22:27,530
thought it through it just proved more

494
00:22:30,610 --> 00:22:27,920
different

495
00:22:32,590 --> 00:22:30,620
to air follow than they expected because

496
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:32,600
they charge so much money because they

497
00:22:36,430 --> 00:22:34,730
have at that point they had a large

498
00:22:39,070 --> 00:22:36,440
infrastructure including various

499
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:39,080
training centers and technologies it was

500
00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:41,030
very expensive to run which is partly

501
00:22:45,310 --> 00:22:42,830
why they were charging people so much

502
00:22:48,850 --> 00:22:45,320
for it and what happened was that they

503
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:48,860
failed to get enough people am to join

504
00:22:55,150 --> 00:22:51,440
the program to pay for its running costs

505
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:55,160
so they went into administration and at

506
00:23:00,970 --> 00:22:57,490
the time we thought that this would um

507
00:23:03,340 --> 00:23:00,980
perhaps be the end of door and it would

508
00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:03,350
just be another footnote in the long

509
00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:05,750
history of quackery but unfortunately

510
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:09,860
since then they restarted with almost

511
00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:12,410
exactly the same business model with a

512
00:23:18,700 --> 00:23:16,340
few tweaks so it sometimes feels like

513
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:18,710
all our blog in efforts were were to no

514
00:23:25,350 --> 00:23:22,490
avail a bottom I think there's a change

515
00:23:28,420 --> 00:23:25,360
in people's perception and certainly am

516
00:23:31,450 --> 00:23:28,430
within the media within blogs or so

517
00:23:33,910 --> 00:23:31,460
because we've established the criticism

518
00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:33,920
of door it's easy to look at criticism

519
00:23:38,890 --> 00:23:37,070
and reapply it to the nude or even

520
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:38,900
though did not really changed that much

521
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:41,210
I think they are really beginning to

522
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:44,330
find it difficult at the moment dark has

523
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:47,690
touched upon how we as bloggers became

524
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:50,450
very supportive she writes that we ended

525
00:23:54,670 --> 00:23:52,850
up telling door uses much more than the

526
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:54,680
official door information for the first

527
00:23:59,500 --> 00:23:56,450
month or so when it went into

528
00:24:02,230 --> 00:23:59,510
administration in Australia and as you

529
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:02,240
alluded to gympie predicted door going

530
00:24:07,150 --> 00:24:04,010
broke six months before they actually

531
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:07,160
did door we're investing all of this in

532
00:24:10,750 --> 00:24:09,050
treatment and none into research which

533
00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:10,760
could have bought in government funding

534
00:24:15,010 --> 00:24:13,040
they promised when they restarted after

535
00:24:17,230 --> 00:24:15,020
going bust that Winfred door would

536
00:24:18,940 --> 00:24:17,240
concentrate on funding research more

537
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:18,950
than treatment but none of this has

538
00:24:22,660 --> 00:24:20,930
seemed to have happened what was your

539
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:22,670
take on it health would watch it heard

540
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:25,010
what blogs waved offer as opposed to an

541
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:26,570
addition in addition to them in addition

542
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:28,970
to the mainstream media I think part of

543
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:31,310
it was definitely a skimpy was talking

544
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:34,130
about and as duck mention the timeless

545
00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:35,450
of the timelessness of what we were

546
00:24:40,060 --> 00:24:38,360
doing same do it gympie was able to quit

547
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:40,070
predict these problems well before there

548
00:24:41,890 --> 00:24:41,210
was any mention of this in the main

549
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:41,900
street in the main

550
00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:46,250
gmedia more like intelligent or we were

551
00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:49,070
able to off of information and support

552
00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:52,190
to p2 door-to-door uses when the company

553
00:24:56,620 --> 00:24:54,560
went into administration to get on and

554
00:25:00,340 --> 00:24:56,630
to get on to this almost more quickly

555
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:00,350
the more established bodies look looking

556
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:02,960
this looking the story could do but I

557
00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:05,120
think also a different ethical approach

558
00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:07,670
was available to us as well we didn't

559
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:10,820
have the type of type the type of

560
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:14,000
pressures of time or illness in some

561
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:16,370
sense of resources which wish to witness

562
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:19,610
might it might have been facing so we

563
00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:21,410
were to go some of the research more

564
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:24,380
depth to outset to access some of the

565
00:25:28,510 --> 00:25:26,660
some of the research papers about a part

566
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:28,520
door and to be able to provide some

567
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:29,810
deeper coverage of the topic as well

568
00:25:35,140 --> 00:25:32,960
what brain duck is added to this is how

569
00:25:37,270 --> 00:25:35,150
we ended up doing press releases to the

570
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:37,280
media we ended up telling users how to

571
00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:39,770
reclaim what they had paid and staff how

572
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:41,600
to clean welfare benefits which was

573
00:25:45,790 --> 00:25:44,090
really surreal we even got the

574
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:45,800
background on what was happening with

575
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:48,110
door six months before I kicked off so

576
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:51,170
as you have both said very well prepared

577
00:25:55,870 --> 00:25:53,270
ahead of time and it was just chance

578
00:25:58,300 --> 00:25:55,880
that door happened to hit MSM when it

579
00:26:01,180 --> 00:25:58,310
did I guess there's another thing to

580
00:26:02,830 --> 00:26:01,190
pick up is because of the of the

581
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:02,840
positions were fighting on there's not

582
00:26:07,870 --> 00:26:05,360
we don't feel any pressure to maintain a

583
00:26:11,230 --> 00:26:07,880
kind of a kind of force a kind of force

584
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:11,240
neutrality so where is journalists

585
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:14,480
covering this might or might often feel

586
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:17,810
like they have to for example have put a

587
00:26:24,910 --> 00:26:21,290
story in terms of the great weight of

588
00:26:28,330 --> 00:26:24,920
scientific evidence says this but door

589
00:26:31,450 --> 00:26:28,340
have a couple of committing really nice

590
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:31,460
stories about people who did door and

591
00:26:35,770 --> 00:26:33,200
learn to read it and learn to read at

592
00:26:40,210 --> 00:26:35,780
the state at the same time we're able to

593
00:26:43,030 --> 00:26:40,220
offer much stronger account of what the

594
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:43,040
of all the evidence in the topic doesn't

595
00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:45,410
doesn't show without feeling without

596
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:47,480
feeling the need to head to construct

597
00:26:52,690 --> 00:26:51,110
this kind of false balance which also

598
00:26:55,710 --> 00:26:52,700
made him eat mainstream looking out

599
00:26:57,180 --> 00:26:55,720
that's a push towards brain decades

600
00:27:00,060 --> 00:26:57,190
in that we don't have to worry about

601
00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:00,070
being sued this improves coverage a lot

602
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:02,440
my lecturers can't talk about door in

603
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:04,330
public much and they have to watch their

604
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:07,210
words carefully she believed she doesn't

605
00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:09,850
do you ever reflect upon the fact that

606
00:27:14,190 --> 00:27:11,860
we had the example of Simon Singh

607
00:27:19,740 --> 00:27:14,200
getting sued for what he said well I

608
00:27:21,570 --> 00:27:19,750
think Simon Singh is was in a very lucky

609
00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:21,580
position as well as been an extremely

610
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:23,950
brave man and that he had both the

611
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:26,320
willingness to defend himself finances

612
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:30,730
to defend himself and and unfortunately

613
00:27:38,130 --> 00:27:34,570
most of us don't have access to his kind

614
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:38,140
of money so I think this is partly why I

615
00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:40,450
am certainly I blocks you can

616
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:43,990
anonymously it's just to reduce the

617
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:46,270
defense that somebody may consult a

618
00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:47,919
lawyer rather than the comment section

619
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:49,390
of my blog when they have a disagreement

620
00:27:56,039 --> 00:27:53,530
with me yeah but and certainly door do

621
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:56,049
have a long track record as doc I said

622
00:28:03,270 --> 00:27:59,919
of em using threats of legal action to

623
00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:03,280
suppress criticism hopefully Simon has

624
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,070
changed things for the best I mean there

625
00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:08,799
is still the the legislation's with

626
00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:11,140
libel law but that is a matter for the

627
00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:12,909
next government of the United Kingdom

628
00:28:20,669 --> 00:28:18,190
and so I I hope it will improve am but

629
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:20,679
the internet does offer a great deal of

630
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:23,730
anonymity if you want to offer up am

631
00:28:29,549 --> 00:28:27,039
criticism which which is usually a good

632
00:28:32,250 --> 00:28:29,559
thing I'm certainly lovable laws are

633
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:32,260
definitely consider d even even after

634
00:28:37,380 --> 00:28:34,690
this in case the type of pasta people

635
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:37,390
think that you that you incur if he gets

636
00:28:43,409 --> 00:28:40,570
sued go way beyond what a typical person

637
00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:43,419
could afford I mean it's in case with

638
00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:45,580
only partway through and I think he ran

639
00:28:51,630 --> 00:28:49,390
up to about 200 about 200,000 pounds Wow

640
00:28:53,130 --> 00:28:51,640
works both ways to an extent of course

641
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,140
if you're running up if the person

642
00:28:58,049 --> 00:28:55,600
students also running up huge costs then

643
00:29:00,210 --> 00:28:58,059
the the orders of the person they're

644
00:29:03,930 --> 00:29:00,220
suing even having money to pay costs on

645
00:29:05,730 --> 00:29:03,940
that grade as if even even winning even

646
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:05,740
working the case it looks like singers

647
00:29:09,490 --> 00:29:08,350
lost and I chunk of two years of his

648
00:29:11,590 --> 00:29:09,500
life

649
00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:11,600
and even if you if it gets costs facts

650
00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:14,630
like to be back about 40,000 down which

651
00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:16,700
in yourself as well it is is the way

652
00:29:22,210 --> 00:29:18,860
above the average annual income in the

653
00:29:24,190 --> 00:29:22,220
UK brain dark adds to this that door

654
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,200
went after several leading dyslexia

655
00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:26,240
academics they should be able to show

656
00:29:31,210 --> 00:29:28,190
that they are right by research and not

657
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:31,220
by libel law yes oh I mean this is

658
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:32,960
always the trouble with alternative

659
00:29:37,330 --> 00:29:35,330
medicine or the wealthy proponents of

660
00:29:39,790 --> 00:29:37,340
alternative medicine anyway because the

661
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:39,800
evidence base is so lacking the the

662
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:42,290
courts are relatively easy way of

663
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:44,210
ensuring that awkward questions aren't

664
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:46,880
asked I mean it'd be nice in a perfect

665
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:49,370
world of everybody could debate the

666
00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:51,290
strength of a visit and on the basis of

667
00:29:55,690 --> 00:29:53,900
evidence supporting it but some people

668
00:29:58,390 --> 00:29:55,700
have to be at kicking and screaming to

669
00:30:01,360 --> 00:29:58,400
do just that it is now quite some time

670
00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:01,370
after 2008 what has changed with door

671
00:30:05,230 --> 00:30:03,350
it's a bit complicated because as you

672
00:30:07,630 --> 00:30:05,240
know I am door went into administration

673
00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:07,640
and then a new doll rose from the ashes

674
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:12,040
and and the door was still quite

675
00:30:18,820 --> 00:30:16,130
uncertain of where they got the money

676
00:30:21,130 --> 00:30:18,830
and how they bought the old version of

677
00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:21,140
doors intellectual property rights I am

678
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:23,750
investigating it um and I do hope to

679
00:30:28,060 --> 00:30:25,730
blog on it soon in the next couple of

680
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:28,070
weeks the only trouble is there's a UK

681
00:30:33,580 --> 00:30:31,310
election on at the moment so this I will

682
00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:33,590
be looking into and who is behind the

683
00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:36,260
new door but as i said earlier their

684
00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:38,390
business model seems to be roughly the

685
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:40,820
same as the previous door which raises

686
00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:43,730
serious questions about the phone I the

687
00:30:48,010 --> 00:30:46,460
financial viability I mean they used to

688
00:30:49,930 --> 00:30:48,020
saying theories they seem to use the

689
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:49,940
same sort of infrastructures you stand

690
00:30:54,730 --> 00:30:51,530
on your wobble board and you throw your

691
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:54,740
bean bags and they have a few new and

692
00:31:00,670 --> 00:30:58,640
web based methods of assessment but what

693
00:31:02,860 --> 00:31:00,680
is interesting is that the new door who

694
00:31:05,110 --> 00:31:02,870
are now called dinoball limited or the

695
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:05,120
work called dynamo limited up until

696
00:31:10,630 --> 00:31:08,480
January of this year and have now become

697
00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:10,640
what is called a community interest

698
00:31:17,530 --> 00:31:14,200
company now this is a sort of unique and

699
00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:17,540
structure in the UK for businesses whose

700
00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:21,350
main aim is to improve the to improve

701
00:31:24,910 --> 00:31:23,180
the community basically I mean I think

702
00:31:27,220 --> 00:31:24,920
back to the people behind or being

703
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:27,230
quickly genuine in their desire to to

704
00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:30,710
help people but what this does is it

705
00:31:37,060 --> 00:31:34,820
offers and tax breaks and it reduces the

706
00:31:39,460 --> 00:31:37,070
liability of the shareholders and the

707
00:31:42,010 --> 00:31:39,470
event of administration which is an

708
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:42,020
interesting issue given doors past but

709
00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:44,810
it also limits the ability of share

710
00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:47,390
holders to profits as well which I think

711
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:49,880
on the face of it does give this new

712
00:31:55,060 --> 00:31:51,920
version of door making increased moral

713
00:31:56,410 --> 00:31:55,070
standing at least to this and say we're

714
00:31:58,450 --> 00:31:56,420
in it because we want to make people

715
00:32:00,160 --> 00:31:58,460
better not for the money but that's

716
00:32:02,260 --> 00:32:00,170
never really been an argument against

717
00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:02,270
them the argument is simply it's a

718
00:32:06,190 --> 00:32:04,040
simple question of efficacy does door

719
00:32:08,590 --> 00:32:06,200
work if it doesn't work then why are you

720
00:32:10,270 --> 00:32:08,600
charging this money for it I am trying

721
00:32:12,850 --> 00:32:10,280
to find out why they haven't submitted

722
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:12,860
their accounts they have got a

723
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:14,960
legitimate extension of this but they

724
00:32:19,330 --> 00:32:16,730
are not responding to inquiries at the

725
00:32:21,610 --> 00:32:19,340
moment brain dark ads that door could

726
00:32:23,770 --> 00:32:21,620
afford much better PR than a bunch of

727
00:32:25,330 --> 00:32:23,780
bloggers if it wasn't for being Goldacre

728
00:32:28,150 --> 00:32:25,340
I doubt we wouldn't have even been

729
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:28,160
noticed much however right we are but

730
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:29,930
when people have this information they

731
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:32,000
do change their behavior there was a

732
00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:34,130
fantastic program in Australia four

733
00:32:39,070 --> 00:32:36,740
corners the behavior business which when

734
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:39,080
door file for bankruptcy we could see

735
00:32:43,210 --> 00:32:41,210
cut their customer signups by half

736
00:32:45,790 --> 00:32:43,220
leading daughter go bankrupt in

737
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:45,800
Australia and not restart when there has

738
00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:48,830
restarted in many other countries dogs

739
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:50,870
seem to have responded to this by using

740
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:54,290
soft PR using case studies they've even

741
00:32:59,530 --> 00:32:56,930
taken the nonsensical boss all common

742
00:33:01,750 --> 00:32:59,540
research of their website it now has

743
00:33:04,510 --> 00:33:01,760
pictures of smiling children not

744
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:04,520
white-coated doctors door have

745
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:07,310
increasingly also being using rugby

746
00:33:12,010 --> 00:33:09,410
players to promote their business some

747
00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:12,020
of whom now own the company and this

748
00:33:17,050 --> 00:33:14,390
isn't usually mentioned on TV interviews

749
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:17,060
talk about the about the advertising

750
00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:19,010
standards authority building connected

751
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:22,190
or basically door were advertising with

752
00:33:26,770 --> 00:33:24,110
Google's but with google sports

753
00:33:29,980 --> 00:33:26,780
sponsored search fodor's and they had an

754
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:29,990
advert suggestion the boating the door

755
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:32,000
program asked people needed help with

756
00:33:37,299 --> 00:33:36,530
dyslexia ADHD dyslexia or source

757
00:33:40,210 --> 00:33:37,309
purchase

758
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:40,220
I put in a complaint to the UK's

759
00:33:44,350 --> 00:33:41,600
Advertising Standards Authority about

760
00:33:46,930 --> 00:33:44,360
this as it in most settings in the UK

761
00:33:48,639 --> 00:33:46,940
and almost advertised I put a product or

762
00:33:50,169 --> 00:33:48,649
service is being able to do as be able

763
00:33:52,690 --> 00:33:50,179
to do something you have to have

764
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:52,700
reasonable evidence that that can do it

765
00:33:58,090 --> 00:33:55,519
so I put in a complaint challenging were

766
00:34:00,759 --> 00:33:58,100
Theodore was actually able to be to be

767
00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:00,769
any help with with these with his little

768
00:34:05,470 --> 00:34:03,110
learning difficulties they named which

769
00:34:07,690 --> 00:34:05,480
resulted in the AAS a building that the

770
00:34:09,339 --> 00:34:07,700
door advert was misleading and that he

771
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:09,349
breached the essays rules on

772
00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:11,500
truthfulness and substantiation

773
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:14,540
effectively they say us asked or what

774
00:34:18,490 --> 00:34:16,760
evidence they they had that their

775
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:18,500
program could work to help with these

776
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:20,810
conditions door submitted to what

777
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:23,210
evidence what evidence they could they

778
00:34:26,859 --> 00:34:25,010
say found the evidence is admitted it

779
00:34:29,409 --> 00:34:26,869
wasn't enough to support the type of

780
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:29,419
claims the door the door was making and

781
00:34:34,589 --> 00:34:32,480
therefore up and therefore upheld to

782
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:34,599
come up hard to complaint against them

783
00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:39,290
which if any means they're taking the

784
00:34:42,879 --> 00:34:40,790
time to assess the evidence door was

785
00:34:44,430 --> 00:34:42,889
able to provide and found is not

786
00:34:48,010 --> 00:34:44,440
sufficient to support the type of claims

787
00:34:51,490 --> 00:34:48,020
their doors making howevers [\h__\h] is

788
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:51,500
point out door still have since then

789
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:53,569
continue to make to make these types of

790
00:34:58,569 --> 00:34:56,450
claims one of the things about modern

791
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:58,579
technology we now have access to twitter

792
00:35:03,339 --> 00:35:01,280
and brain duck ads we've also had to put

793
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:03,349
in complaints about several claims by

794
00:35:07,780 --> 00:35:05,599
door on twitter where they've claimed

795
00:35:11,020 --> 00:35:07,790
that they treat the root causes of

796
00:35:13,170 --> 00:35:11,030
dyslexia so we're continuing to watch on

797
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:13,180
several different fronts now i guess

798
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:15,650
that definitely i think one of the

799
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:18,050
things bloggers can do is where

800
00:35:24,460 --> 00:35:22,400
companies use the new media in attempt

801
00:35:27,579 --> 00:35:24,470
to generate good good PR or to generate

802
00:35:30,970 --> 00:35:27,589
attention blog yourself be quite well

803
00:35:33,579 --> 00:35:30,980
placed to respond flexibly to this so

804
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:33,589
what do you also recommend gimpy in

805
00:35:38,710 --> 00:35:35,450
terms of what people can do to help

806
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:38,720
raise awareness it's basically about

807
00:35:42,250 --> 00:35:40,250
telling as many people as possible

808
00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:42,260
whether that's through the media or on

809
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:44,240
twitter or through the blog and so on

810
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:49,760
and there's a lot of conflicting causes

811
00:35:55,569 --> 00:35:50,930
that people have so

812
00:35:58,690 --> 00:35:55,579
an approach that I'm becoming more fond

813
00:36:02,950 --> 00:35:58,700
of these days it's as well as the sort

814
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:02,960
of general raising awareness of the

815
00:36:07,839 --> 00:36:04,910
problems of the various air dubious

816
00:36:10,079 --> 00:36:07,849
sound claimed skewers for specific

817
00:36:12,609 --> 00:36:10,089
learning difficulties and so on but I'm

818
00:36:14,470 --> 00:36:12,619
they go going back to what I said it

819
00:36:16,329 --> 00:36:14,480
started it's about also about the

820
00:36:21,849 --> 00:36:16,339
regulatory structures that are in place

821
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:21,859
to prevent and companies lab door taking

822
00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:24,950
advantage of people no door unlike comee

823
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:28,430
path so on should in theory be following

824
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:30,910
illustrate laws governing the conduct of

825
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:32,690
businesses at Community Interest

826
00:36:40,859 --> 00:36:36,800
companies charities and so on so yeah

827
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:40,869
one of the ways to challenge door is to

828
00:36:47,650 --> 00:36:43,730
bring to the attention of the regulators

829
00:36:50,140 --> 00:36:47,660
there conducts as a means of an

830
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:50,150
increasing sort of regulatory scrutiny

831
00:36:55,470 --> 00:36:51,920
on them to make sure that they are

832
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:55,480
behaving appropriately I also liked

833
00:37:02,260 --> 00:36:58,640
talking to parents keeping in touch with

834
00:37:04,270 --> 00:37:02,270
people who do work in ABA treatments in

835
00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:04,280
treatments which have been shown to help

836
00:37:10,059 --> 00:37:06,700
out with things like dyslexia dyspraxia

837
00:37:12,309 --> 00:37:10,069
autism and brain duck has added here

838
00:37:14,620 --> 00:37:12,319
that one particularly worrying thing

839
00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:14,630
about door being partly owned by various

840
00:37:18,910 --> 00:37:16,700
welsh rugby players is that they're

841
00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:18,920
using this to get special access to the

842
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:21,349
welsh assembly government using fame

843
00:37:25,990 --> 00:37:24,170
rather than evidence she's turned up to

844
00:37:27,970 --> 00:37:26,000
the welsh assembly in person to

845
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:27,980
challenge this but it's difficult when

846
00:37:32,319 --> 00:37:29,599
you have to start by explaining the

847
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:32,329
concept of a fair trial would you think

848
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:33,710
speaks number for some of the broader

849
00:37:38,319 --> 00:37:35,599
issues around how people have people

850
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:38,329
think about evidence it's a it's an

851
00:37:45,549 --> 00:37:40,880
interesting question because it's pretty

852
00:37:48,660 --> 00:37:45,559
unreasonable to expect and the entire

853
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:48,670
political class inside media class to

854
00:37:55,569 --> 00:37:53,510
understand the issues of having a

855
00:37:59,079 --> 00:37:55,579
specific learning difficulty as well as

856
00:38:01,300 --> 00:37:59,089
to know how to determine your signs from

857
00:38:06,370 --> 00:38:01,310
your pseudoscience and so on

858
00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:06,380
ultimately what people who are

859
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:08,390
interested in trying to increase the

860
00:38:14,950 --> 00:38:10,490
amount of skepticism in society have to

861
00:38:18,450 --> 00:38:14,960
do is explain to people why their own

862
00:38:21,930 --> 00:38:18,460
personal judgment is often not a good

863
00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:21,940
guarantee of how true a claim is and

864
00:38:27,930 --> 00:38:25,460
it's about teaching people the value of

865
00:38:31,390 --> 00:38:27,940
evidence the value of expertise and

866
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:31,400
knowing that simply alton opinion

867
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:35,800
yourself is not a justification for a

868
00:38:40,330 --> 00:38:38,450
policy or someone that you're interested

869
00:38:43,210 --> 00:38:40,340
in but you you have to consider the

870
00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:43,220
wider evidence base brain duck is added

871
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:45,830
to this i would probably also add the

872
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:47,330
fact that we networked together as

873
00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:50,330
bloggers and the opportunities that dr.

874
00:38:54,370 --> 00:38:52,520
ben goldacre gave us was extremely

875
00:38:56,770 --> 00:38:54,380
useful when you are explaining why

876
00:38:59,170 --> 00:38:56,780
something does not work use this as a

877
00:39:01,710 --> 00:38:59,180
toolkit communicate how to evaluate

878
00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:01,720
claims not just all this is nonsense

879
00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:04,520
it's not unreasonable to expect people

880
00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:07,070
to not understand what a control group

881
00:39:12,010 --> 00:39:09,860
is but they can be taught since she

882
00:39:14,350 --> 00:39:12,020
considers herself a psychology geek it's

883
00:39:17,350 --> 00:39:14,360
also about understanding what cognitive

884
00:39:20,050 --> 00:39:17,360
biases are your own how to overcome them

885
00:39:21,820 --> 00:39:20,060
and other people's to explain them and

886
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:21,830
to hijack them towards a better

887
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:25,250
understanding of how to use evidence the

888
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:28,490
other thing one aspect of this is there

889
00:39:32,890 --> 00:39:30,850
is the kind of social context in which

890
00:39:34,990 --> 00:39:32,900
in which specifically learning

891
00:39:37,810 --> 00:39:35,000
difficulties as well as challenging

892
00:39:39,670 --> 00:39:37,820
dubis GBS treatment service for these

893
00:39:41,890 --> 00:39:39,680
conditions it's also important to

894
00:39:44,770 --> 00:39:41,900
emphasize that is not the end of the

895
00:39:47,530 --> 00:39:44,780
world that people do do develop do

896
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:47,540
develop coping strategies and that time

897
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:49,610
energy resources might be better spent

898
00:39:58,210 --> 00:39:55,040
on developing so so developing social

899
00:40:00,700 --> 00:39:58,220
structures where people with some

900
00:40:02,650 --> 00:40:00,710
difficulties are more able to contribute

901
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:02,660
fully rather than desperately hunting

902
00:40:07,810 --> 00:40:05,090
for some kind some kind of miracle cure

903
00:40:09,940 --> 00:40:07,820
very well put yes and that's one of the

904
00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:09,950
things that Winfred or even put on his

905
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:11,900
book that he had the miracle cure

906
00:40:15,069 --> 00:40:14,330
through what he was doing and it just

907
00:40:18,430 --> 00:40:15,079
hasn't been

908
00:40:21,459 --> 00:40:18,440
own to be true brain dark ads absolutely

909
00:40:24,819 --> 00:40:21,469
door sales hope but people with SPL DS

910
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:24,829
don't need to buy it I actually it's

911
00:40:32,170 --> 00:40:28,249
always slightly difficult I find to

912
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:32,180
argue but coping with specific loan debt

913
00:40:38,709 --> 00:40:34,640
about cocaine it's never about curing it

914
00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:38,719
and I think it's certainly it's

915
00:40:45,339 --> 00:40:42,650
something I he struggled with a bit as a

916
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:45,349
teenager just I mean I was also a

917
00:40:50,319 --> 00:40:47,359
critically noxious teenagers which

918
00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:50,329
probably partly to do with that but just

919
00:40:55,660 --> 00:40:54,049
I think the realization that's times you

920
00:40:57,430 --> 00:40:55,670
just have to work a little bit harder

921
00:41:00,279 --> 00:40:57,440
than everyone else to achieve the steam

922
00:41:02,949 --> 00:41:00,289
sort of standards but i think that like

923
00:41:07,690 --> 00:41:02,959
the freeway isn't it i mean you cope

924
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:07,700
with the hydrogen and you buy on support

925
00:41:12,459 --> 00:41:09,650
from your family from friends from wider

926
00:41:14,410 --> 00:41:12,469
society and and you get it which is the

927
00:41:17,229 --> 00:41:14,420
great thing about it i mean and things

928
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:17,239
like or just a distraction they were

929
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:19,670
distraction the important things which

930
00:41:27,609 --> 00:41:22,910
is basically getting on with it as best

931
00:41:31,329 --> 00:41:27,619
you can and appreciating the help with

932
00:41:33,309 --> 00:41:31,339
people offer ya brain duck also adds yes

933
00:41:35,829 --> 00:41:33,319
but developmental differences are not

934
00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:35,839
developmental stasis people find a niche

935
00:41:39,609 --> 00:41:37,880
and learn to do things better no one

936
00:41:41,739 --> 00:41:39,619
thought when I was first diagnosed with

937
00:41:44,499 --> 00:41:41,749
dyspraxia that I would be ending up

938
00:41:47,229 --> 00:41:44,509
running marathons so that is wonderful

939
00:41:50,289 --> 00:41:47,239
tonight thank you so much all of you

940
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:50,299
gimpy holford watch and brain dark for

941
00:41:55,849 --> 00:41:53,119
joining us on a skeptic zone

942
00:41:57,950 --> 00:41:55,859
to learn more about door and the other

943
00:42:00,849 --> 00:41:57,960
skeptical investigations that these blob

944
00:42:05,089 --> 00:42:00,859
is right about head to [\h__\h] ease blog at

945
00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:05,099
gimpy blog wordpress com brain ducks

946
00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:09,420
blog at Brenda wordpress com and the

947
00:42:28,579 --> 00:42:11,940
whole food watch blog at Hallford watch

948
00:42:30,829 --> 00:42:28,589
dot info this is des Rochelle hosted

949
00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:30,839
skeptically speaking check out our

950
00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:33,060
website at skeptically speaking calm and

951
00:42:40,790 --> 00:42:37,020
listen to us live on CJ sr 88.5 FM in

952
00:42:51,620 --> 00:42:40,800
edmonton alberta canada I now return you

953
00:42:59,530 --> 00:42:51,630
to the skeptic zone let's all take this

954
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:01,970
David R&R which is a journalist with a

955
00:43:06,770 --> 00:43:03,890
regular column in The Times newspaper

956
00:43:09,140 --> 00:43:06,780
he's also a broadcaster a documentary

957
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:09,150
maker in the author of two books the

958
00:43:12,980 --> 00:43:10,800
latter of which is voodoo history's

959
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:12,990
about the role of the conspiracy theory

960
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:15,510
in shaping modern history David thank

961
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:16,650
you very much for joining me on the

962
00:43:20,180 --> 00:43:18,480
skeptic zone are you're more than

963
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:20,190
welcome could you tell me a little bit

964
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:21,750
about your role as a journalist because

965
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:24,240
we in when we spoke before recording you

966
00:43:27,020 --> 00:43:25,440
told me about a few of the things that

967
00:43:28,490 --> 00:43:27,030
you're interested in and of course

968
00:43:31,490 --> 00:43:28,500
you're interested in conspiracy theories

969
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:31,500
but that's not your only interest I know

970
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:33,690
it's a it's not I mean I've been a

971
00:43:39,950 --> 00:43:36,890
journalist in television radio and print

972
00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:39,960
four more years really Navin I like to

973
00:43:43,220 --> 00:43:41,670
enumerate you always think of yourself

974
00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:43,230
as young but there comes a certain point

975
00:43:47,150 --> 00:43:44,520
that we tried to admit we've been doing

976
00:43:49,070 --> 00:43:47,160
for a long time and I've been working in

977
00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:49,080
journalism for the quarter of a century

978
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:53,430
now and I'm mostly interested in

979
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:56,310
international affairs politics culture

980
00:44:02,420 --> 00:43:58,290
and the media and the interrelationship

981
00:44:05,090 --> 00:44:02,430
between them so that's the area that I

982
00:44:06,740 --> 00:44:05,100
write about for the times as a columnist

983
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:06,750
and I've also worked on other newspapers

984
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:09,060
too now you wrote a book about

985
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:10,770
conspiracy theories of course the

986
00:44:15,350 --> 00:44:12,300
introduction of the book is titled blame

987
00:44:17,660 --> 00:44:15,360
Kevin and it arrives it describes how

988
00:44:20,180 --> 00:44:17,670
you came to be aware and skeptical of

989
00:44:23,060 --> 00:44:20,190
conspiracy theories can you tell us how

990
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,070
that happened yeah absolutely i mean I

991
00:44:27,110 --> 00:44:25,680
believe I i I've increasingly been very

992
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:27,120
interested in why people believe what

993
00:44:30,410 --> 00:44:28,890
they do this is largely because I was

994
00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:30,420
brought up in the household of

995
00:44:34,460 --> 00:44:32,730
Communists my father was a full-time

996
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:34,470
worker for the British Communist Party

997
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:40,410
and in the 50s and 60s and I've spent a

998
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:41,910
lot of time my next book actually will

999
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:43,980
be an exploration of that world but that

1000
00:44:47,870 --> 00:44:45,960
business of why people choose to believe

1001
00:44:50,540 --> 00:44:47,880
what they do and about commitments I was

1002
00:44:52,910 --> 00:44:50,550
always fascinated me and but one aspect

1003
00:44:57,740 --> 00:44:52,920
of it that began to introduce me a lot

1004
00:44:59,390 --> 00:44:57,750
after nine eleven was the area of hoaxes

1005
00:45:02,540 --> 00:44:59,400
and conspiracy theories in other words

1006
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:02,550
how people would choose to believe that

1007
00:45:06,530 --> 00:45:04,290
what seems on the face of it to be

1008
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:06,540
absurd things and how intelligent people

1009
00:45:11,780 --> 00:45:08,520
will believe absurd things now there's a

1010
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:11,790
particular cause which is a moment which

1011
00:45:15,470 --> 00:45:14,250
made me think if I need to I feel like I

1012
00:45:18,230 --> 00:45:15,480
kind of need to write this book and this

1013
00:45:21,290 --> 00:45:18,240
was when I was with this chap called

1014
00:45:24,530 --> 00:45:21,300
Kevin terrific guy we were filming in

1015
00:45:27,380 --> 00:45:24,540
Tunisia together for a BBC program which

1016
00:45:30,380 --> 00:45:27,390
was about empower in tourist

1017
00:45:32,510 --> 00:45:30,390
destinations the tourists can go about

1018
00:45:35,930 --> 00:45:32,520
their business completely unaware of the

1019
00:45:37,790 --> 00:45:35,940
bad treatment and torture of local

1020
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:37,800
dissidents and so this is kind of

1021
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:39,330
difficult program to do because the

1022
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:40,710
Tunisian secret police were watching

1023
00:45:44,660 --> 00:45:42,210
quite a lot of the places where we were

1024
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:44,670
going and so on and so kevin was a kind

1025
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:47,010
of ultra-reliable ultra sensible and

1026
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:49,290
intelligent guy to go with he was acting

1027
00:45:54,050 --> 00:45:50,910
as the cameramen and we had to travel

1028
00:45:56,720 --> 00:45:54,060
down from the north to the center of the

1029
00:45:58,280 --> 00:45:56,730
country quite a long way and it was on

1030
00:46:01,640 --> 00:45:58,290
this journey that he sadly turned around

1031
00:46:04,850 --> 00:46:01,650
to me and started talking about the moon

1032
00:46:06,410 --> 00:46:04,860
landings the moon landing in 1969 and he

1033
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:06,420
asked me what I thought about it I said

1034
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:07,920
but I've seen it on television when I

1035
00:46:12,620 --> 00:46:10,770
was a kid and he then would not to tell

1036
00:46:15,740 --> 00:46:12,630
me that I hadn't it has all been mocked

1037
00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:15,750
up in a stage somewhere the evidence for

1038
00:46:17,930 --> 00:46:17,550
this lioness is playing a series of

1039
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:17,940
discs

1040
00:46:22,849 --> 00:46:21,210
repin see about the photography and so

1041
00:46:25,550 --> 00:46:22,859
on and then said you know what do you

1042
00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:25,560
think about this and I said well my

1043
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:27,030
first reaction this wasn't know anything

1044
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:29,910
about it if I I feel instinctively able

1045
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:31,560
to taken a lot more effort to organize a

1046
00:46:36,650 --> 00:46:34,770
hoax moon-landing than a real one much

1047
00:46:38,059 --> 00:46:36,660
easier to do the real one so in a way

1048
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:38,069
what you're choosing to believe I said

1049
00:46:44,930 --> 00:46:41,310
in is something much more ridiculous

1050
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:44,940
than that there would be a real moon

1051
00:46:48,589 --> 00:46:46,410
landing something much more complicated

1052
00:46:49,819 --> 00:46:48,599
something and it's interesting to me

1053
00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:49,829
that you want to believe it and I

1054
00:46:53,510 --> 00:46:51,839
thought about this out afterwards I

1055
00:46:57,230 --> 00:46:53,520
thought there's something really here to

1056
00:46:59,440 --> 00:46:57,240
be explained I wondered how you could

1057
00:47:03,200 --> 00:46:59,450
choose to believe something that was

1058
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,210
inherently more ridiculous from the

1059
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:06,000
thing that you were questioning that was

1060
00:47:12,559 --> 00:47:10,890
inherently are much more unlikely and so

1061
00:47:14,329 --> 00:47:12,569
that kind of started me often looking at

1062
00:47:16,460 --> 00:47:14,339
the conspiracy is an all-star about the

1063
00:47:19,220 --> 00:47:16,470
time that the first conspiracy theories

1064
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:19,230
about 911 were beginning to appear this

1065
00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:23,130
was in 2002 so I looked I just simply

1066
00:47:25,819 --> 00:47:24,569
started looking at all the conspiracy

1067
00:47:28,099 --> 00:47:25,829
theories that went around including at

1068
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:28,109
least a couple which I had in a kind of

1069
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:31,380
quiet way believed in myself like the

1070
00:47:36,410 --> 00:47:34,710
conspiracy to kill JFK or the idea that

1071
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:36,420
Hitler would set fire to the Reichstag I

1072
00:47:41,240 --> 00:47:38,700
looked at dozens and actually boiling

1073
00:47:42,829 --> 00:47:41,250
them down to get to see a range of

1074
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:42,839
conspiracy theories of different types

1075
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:44,970
and see both what they had in common and

1076
00:47:49,069 --> 00:47:47,010
what was different about them was really

1077
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:49,079
a huge task just like took me nearly six

1078
00:47:53,809 --> 00:47:51,420
years to write the book it took me a

1079
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:53,819
very long time but it was it was

1080
00:47:58,370 --> 00:47:55,800
fascinating and I could easily have

1081
00:48:01,760 --> 00:47:58,380
extended the book to include urban myths

1082
00:48:04,579 --> 00:48:01,770
or extended it to include conspiracy

1083
00:48:06,349 --> 00:48:04,589
theories not in Western countries but in

1084
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:06,359
other countries too and so on but it was

1085
00:48:12,530 --> 00:48:09,450
so many that boiling them down was a

1086
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:12,540
real kind of labor but I got through it

1087
00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:15,720
in the end now before we actually go on

1088
00:48:18,890 --> 00:48:17,190
just to speak about the specific

1089
00:48:20,740 --> 00:48:18,900
conspiracies that you cover in your book

1090
00:48:22,849 --> 00:48:20,750
you're discussing the book several

1091
00:48:26,030 --> 00:48:22,859
possible definitions of a conspiracy

1092
00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:26,040
theory and you chose one definition can

1093
00:48:30,330 --> 00:48:27,300
you tell us what it is and why you chose

1094
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:30,340
it yeah but essentially

1095
00:48:36,090 --> 00:48:32,950
it is if you like the abduction of them

1096
00:48:37,890 --> 00:48:36,100
of a less likely theory as being the

1097
00:48:39,630 --> 00:48:37,900
most likely theory that's essentially

1098
00:48:41,220 --> 00:48:39,640
what a conspiracy theory is I mean the

1099
00:48:44,250 --> 00:48:41,230
one thing you can say about conspiracy

1100
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:44,260
theories in entirety is that they tend

1101
00:48:49,730 --> 00:48:46,960
to abandon the role of accidents and

1102
00:48:52,620 --> 00:48:49,740
contingency in human life and to give

1103
00:48:53,970 --> 00:48:52,630
agency deliberate agency for almost

1104
00:48:56,190 --> 00:48:53,980
everything that happens so in other

1105
00:48:59,130 --> 00:48:56,200
words to conspiracy theorists the First

1106
00:49:02,640 --> 00:48:59,140
World War was was was deliberated upon

1107
00:49:05,370 --> 00:49:02,650
by somebody and its outcome decided by

1108
00:49:08,490 --> 00:49:05,380
somebody whereas installing would see it

1109
00:49:11,310 --> 00:49:08,500
as a combination of a huge number of

1110
00:49:16,260 --> 00:49:11,320
disparate incidents which combine to

1111
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:16,270
create a particular event and so all the

1112
00:49:19,950 --> 00:49:18,610
time although it is both infocus

1113
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:19,960
projector is usually a huge

1114
00:49:25,860 --> 00:49:23,200
simplification it is also a huge over

1115
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:25,870
complex over complexification at the

1116
00:49:30,450 --> 00:49:27,970
same time if you see what I mean it

1117
00:49:34,530 --> 00:49:30,460
manages at the same time to be both of

1118
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:34,540
conspiracy who is essentially a decision

1119
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:37,510
to believe a less likely version of

1120
00:49:41,580 --> 00:49:39,130
history that's that's pretty much what

1121
00:49:44,130 --> 00:49:41,590
it is and you've chosen specific

1122
00:49:47,370 --> 00:49:44,140
conspiracies that obviously first of all

1123
00:49:49,140 --> 00:49:47,380
meet that definition but also cover a

1124
00:49:51,210 --> 00:49:49,150
range of different as you mentioned

1125
00:49:53,070 --> 00:49:51,220
earlier types of conspiracy theories

1126
00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:53,080
could you mention a few of the theory of

1127
00:49:55,980 --> 00:49:54,520
a few of the conspiracy theories you've

1128
00:49:58,290 --> 00:49:55,990
recovered and tell us why you've chosen

1129
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:58,300
to include those well I wanted for

1130
00:50:01,530 --> 00:49:59,920
instance the first conspiracy theory

1131
00:50:03,510 --> 00:50:01,540
which I look at is the protocols of the

1132
00:50:05,730 --> 00:50:03,520
Elders design or the idea was Jewish

1133
00:50:07,950 --> 00:50:05,740
world conspiracy but it actually could

1134
00:50:10,590 --> 00:50:07,960
stand in the for the notion that a small

1135
00:50:12,030 --> 00:50:10,600
group of people on a global level try to

1136
00:50:14,340 --> 00:50:12,040
cause something to happen which is a

1137
00:50:16,530 --> 00:50:14,350
sort of constant theme in a certain type

1138
00:50:18,810 --> 00:50:16,540
of conspiracy theory the second one that

1139
00:50:21,540 --> 00:50:18,820
I look at is a state-sponsored

1140
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:21,550
conspiracy theory I the the one in

1141
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:23,530
Stalinist Russia there was a gigantic

1142
00:50:28,470 --> 00:50:25,920
Trotskyite conspiracy to undermine

1143
00:50:32,190 --> 00:50:28,480
Russia and all the accidents and

1144
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:32,200
industrial problems that Stalinist

1145
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:34,210
industrialization had led to was somehow

1146
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:36,610
the product of deliberate sabotage by

1147
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:39,880
these people I look at what you might

1148
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:42,010
call pseudo history

1149
00:50:47,190 --> 00:50:44,890
in terms of what led up to the cut the

1150
00:50:48,780 --> 00:50:47,200
dan brown I mean not me no not those in

1151
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:48,790
the same league but it's very

1152
00:50:52,530 --> 00:50:50,650
interesting psychologically the Holy

1153
00:50:55,170 --> 00:50:52,540
Blood Holy Grail the idea that the

1154
00:50:57,090 --> 00:50:55,180
Catholic Church conspire to suppress the

1155
00:50:59,220 --> 00:50:57,100
secret bloodline of Jesus because in

1156
00:51:01,500 --> 00:50:59,230
that one I'm looking to see what it is

1157
00:51:03,420 --> 00:51:01,510
about it that people like so much I'd

1158
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:03,430
love I'd love you to actually tell us

1159
00:51:11,610 --> 00:51:09,010
what the name of that chapter is then

1160
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:11,620
kids Holy Blood Holy Grail holy [\h__\h] the

1161
00:51:18,330 --> 00:51:16,090
name of my circular track by her just

1162
00:51:20,250 --> 00:51:18,340
straight forward me from from memory I

1163
00:51:21,780 --> 00:51:20,260
mean and incidentally is one of those

1164
00:51:23,370 --> 00:51:21,790
kind of things about book writing I put

1165
00:51:26,190 --> 00:51:23,380
that chapter heading down always

1166
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:26,200
expecting that the publishers would

1167
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:29,680
demand that I take it out I suppose in a

1168
00:51:34,470 --> 00:51:31,210
way we rather hoping that they would and

1169
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:34,480
when they didn't I left it in I like it

1170
00:51:38,250 --> 00:51:36,010
that way and then there are they that

1171
00:51:42,330 --> 00:51:38,260
those the conspiracy theories which

1172
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:42,340
involve cippec iconic individuals a JFK

1173
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:45,490
Marilyn Princess Diana well I think

1174
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:47,200
something else is happening there which

1175
00:51:52,830 --> 00:51:49,090
are trying to explain to ourselves the

1176
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:52,840
sudden taking away of an iconic and

1177
00:51:57,030 --> 00:51:55,090
important figure and then write the way

1178
00:51:58,410 --> 00:51:57,040
down to 911 and some other theories on

1179
00:51:59,610 --> 00:51:58,420
the way I mean there's a whole slew of

1180
00:52:02,040 --> 00:51:59,620
conspiracy theories which are

1181
00:52:04,140 --> 00:52:02,050
essentially similar from the 1980s which

1182
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:04,150
show that in the old kind of built using

1183
00:52:08,070 --> 00:52:05,950
the Dawkins word conspiracy theories are

1184
00:52:09,930 --> 00:52:08,080
also mimetic in other words there's a

1185
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:09,940
fashion for certain types of conspiracy

1186
00:52:14,610 --> 00:52:11,890
theories at certain points of history

1187
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:14,620
which then suddenly disappear well if

1188
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:16,810
you were to believe in most conspiracy

1189
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:18,370
theories you wouldn't expect there to be

1190
00:52:22,170 --> 00:52:20,290
only fashionable conspiracy theories to

1191
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:22,180
be true so it tells us something that

1192
00:52:26,610 --> 00:52:23,920
the construction of conspiracy theories

1193
00:52:29,310 --> 00:52:26,620
is not totally unlike the construction

1194
00:52:31,410 --> 00:52:29,320
of thats a religious movements and so on

1195
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:31,420
it has the same it has a similar kind of

1196
00:52:39,270 --> 00:52:34,960
faith-based element to it I think

1197
00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:39,280
historically and so that's the kind of

1198
00:52:43,950 --> 00:52:41,830
range that I tried to I try to get in

1199
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:43,960
and coming right up to date in the in

1200
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:45,730
the American edition and in the paper

1201
00:52:50,370 --> 00:52:47,110
back which is that be released here in

1202
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:50,380
Britain also the anti-clinton anti-obama

1203
00:52:57,010 --> 00:52:53,930
conspiracy theories including the birth

1204
00:52:59,200 --> 00:52:57,020
conspiracy theory which show that we

1205
00:53:02,410 --> 00:52:59,210
show the conspiracy theories also are

1206
00:53:04,540 --> 00:53:02,420
come often be a matter of the

1207
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:04,550
rationalization by the politically

1208
00:53:09,460 --> 00:53:07,250
defeated of their own defeat in other

1209
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:09,470
words the idea that somebody like you

1210
00:53:14,020 --> 00:53:11,050
know yours Republicans you only lost

1211
00:53:17,319 --> 00:53:14,030
because of the devilishness of this man

1212
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:17,329
Clinton or the incredible fiendish

1213
00:53:22,180 --> 00:53:20,480
capacity of this terrible man Obama he

1214
00:53:24,309 --> 00:53:22,190
sees you you talk about current politics

1215
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:24,319
um I was wanted to ask you about the the

1216
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:26,480
last conspiracy in the in the edition of

1217
00:53:31,089 --> 00:53:27,770
the book which I read which is the

1218
00:53:33,220 --> 00:53:31,099
british version with no Zeds or hardly

1219
00:53:35,589 --> 00:53:33,230
any that that's about dr. David Kelly

1220
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:35,599
who committed suicide following some

1221
00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:37,130
revelations regarding the war in iraq

1222
00:53:40,630 --> 00:53:39,020
and i was just wondering whether you

1223
00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:40,640
felt you've taken maybe a bit of a risk

1224
00:53:44,710 --> 00:53:42,980
by including something that is as recent

1225
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:44,720
as that well i imagine that when you say

1226
00:53:49,359 --> 00:53:46,730
taken a risk do you mean I took a risk

1227
00:53:50,890 --> 00:53:49,369
because it may I might turn out to be

1228
00:53:52,990 --> 00:53:50,900
wrong he seems that it could be

1229
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:53,000
something that he's still high on the

1230
00:53:58,569 --> 00:53:55,010
political agenda in Britain and perhaps

1231
00:54:01,329 --> 00:53:58,579
not seen as a conspiracy theories in the

1232
00:54:04,180 --> 00:54:01,339
minds of most people the way for example

1233
00:54:06,099 --> 00:54:04,190
the JFK conspiracy might look might look

1234
00:54:08,770 --> 00:54:06,109
to to the ordinary person in the street

1235
00:54:10,510 --> 00:54:08,780
oh sure I'm in that case it just makes

1236
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:10,520
it in my mind that we just make it all

1237
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:12,710
the fresher it would make it it makes it

1238
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:15,170
all the more salient and because people

1239
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:17,210
are actually dealing with one which is

1240
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:19,760
if you like on the go now they can see

1241
00:54:23,289 --> 00:54:21,650
how it's constructed but also my

1242
00:54:25,780 --> 00:54:23,299
motivation they're partially was because

1243
00:54:28,589 --> 00:54:25,790
the book alleging a murder and

1244
00:54:33,010 --> 00:54:28,599
conspiracy was such a an almost perfect

1245
00:54:35,740 --> 00:54:33,020
example of the technique of constructing

1246
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:35,750
a conspiracy theory that I just couldn't

1247
00:54:41,020 --> 00:54:38,510
let it go I mean it was absolutely the

1248
00:54:44,049 --> 00:54:41,030
model as i said in the chapter of

1249
00:54:46,450 --> 00:54:44,059
normalizing the abnormal and abnormal

1250
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:46,460
izing the normal in fact and reversing

1251
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,530
everything in order to come up with the

1252
00:54:52,089 --> 00:54:50,000
conclusion that you wanted to get that

1253
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:52,099
the that the author wanted to come up

1254
00:54:57,299 --> 00:54:53,930
with him I wanted to am atomized and

1255
00:55:00,190 --> 00:54:57,309
show exactly how he done it how he

1256
00:55:03,430 --> 00:55:00,200
overlooked anything that didn't help his

1257
00:55:04,990 --> 00:55:03,440
case only gated it or cast doubt upon

1258
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:05,000
the motives of those who have the

1259
00:55:09,540 --> 00:55:07,210
evidence which negated it how

1260
00:55:11,730 --> 00:55:09,550
he blew up effectively and exaggerated

1261
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:11,740
anything that could conceivably support

1262
00:55:18,380 --> 00:55:13,810
his case until eventually he kind of

1263
00:55:21,359 --> 00:55:18,390
stood this mountain on a pinhead of

1264
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:21,369
actual conjecture and no evidence

1265
00:55:24,930 --> 00:55:22,990
whatsoever not the slightest bit of

1266
00:55:26,670 --> 00:55:24,940
evidence whatsoever to the extent that

1267
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:26,680
it would nevertheless had people who

1268
00:55:30,750 --> 00:55:29,050
were reviewing his book saying he put

1269
00:55:33,060 --> 00:55:30,760
forward a convincing case of which what

1270
00:55:34,829 --> 00:55:33,070
a true skeptic has to say if this is a

1271
00:55:37,410 --> 00:55:34,839
convincing case what on earth is your

1272
00:55:39,780 --> 00:55:37,420
idea of an unconvincing case you know in

1273
00:55:42,450 --> 00:55:39,790
others how easily convince some people

1274
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:42,460
are well there are reasons why you're

1275
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:44,290
easily convinced of something more

1276
00:55:47,130 --> 00:55:45,520
easily convince of some things from

1277
00:55:49,740 --> 00:55:47,140
others and that is larger because you

1278
00:55:51,810 --> 00:55:49,750
want to be and that's quite an important

1279
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:51,820
you know that's quite it's an obvious

1280
00:55:56,130 --> 00:55:53,650
but there is an important lesson

1281
00:55:58,710 --> 00:55:56,140
basically use that as an example of what

1282
00:56:00,930 --> 00:55:58,720
a conspiracy theory is to people who are

1283
00:56:03,329 --> 00:56:00,940
aware of the details and could follow it

1284
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:03,339
in the in the press and then they could

1285
00:56:07,470 --> 00:56:05,530
see through your analysis how this

1286
00:56:10,650 --> 00:56:07,480
really pans out as a conspiracy theory

1287
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:10,660
um well I mean yes this is what this

1288
00:56:13,980 --> 00:56:12,250
particular web miquellee one comes up

1289
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:13,990
every four or five months because a

1290
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:15,220
group of doctors there are six of them

1291
00:56:21,300 --> 00:56:18,010
also every now and again demand a new

1292
00:56:23,550 --> 00:56:21,310
inquest or demand a new inquiry and the

1293
00:56:25,740 --> 00:56:23,560
story is reported by certain papers as

1294
00:56:26,940 --> 00:56:25,750
if it had just happened so in something

1295
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:26,950
like the Daily Mail France has now

1296
00:56:31,890 --> 00:56:30,010
reported this four or five times and

1297
00:56:33,780 --> 00:56:31,900
every time it does is as if this is some

1298
00:56:35,550 --> 00:56:33,790
kind of significantly new story was in

1299
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:35,560
fact is exactly the same old people

1300
00:56:39,630 --> 00:56:38,050
saying exactly the same old thing adding

1301
00:56:42,030 --> 00:56:39,640
absolutely nothing to what they've said

1302
00:56:44,270 --> 00:56:42,040
before and this is because it kind of

1303
00:56:46,740 --> 00:56:44,280
fits the agenda of that particular

1304
00:56:49,380 --> 00:56:46,750
newspaper I not so much I think in their

1305
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:49,390
case because they actually believe it

1306
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:52,930
but also it speaks to a kind of belief

1307
00:56:58,170 --> 00:56:55,650
that sometimes happens that and

1308
00:56:59,760 --> 00:56:58,180
governments are so wicked in the West

1309
00:57:02,280 --> 00:56:59,770
democratic governments were very capable

1310
00:57:05,130 --> 00:57:02,290
of anything secret including deleting

1311
00:57:07,170 --> 00:57:05,140
all the email of those doctors oh yeah

1312
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:07,180
including I mean that's a kind of

1313
00:57:11,609 --> 00:57:09,609
classic every time a conspiracy theories

1314
00:57:13,650 --> 00:57:11,619
has a problem with his or her computer

1315
00:57:16,109 --> 00:57:13,660
and was always his computer then in that

1316
00:57:18,329 --> 00:57:16,119
case that's the authorities doing

1317
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:18,339
something to them now it is true as

1318
00:57:22,910 --> 00:57:20,490
we've know from China

1319
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:22,920
an Iran that there are organized state

1320
00:57:28,370 --> 00:57:26,250
hackers who do sometimes do these things

1321
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:28,380
and so on but on the whole I think we

1322
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:30,180
can honestly say that most conspiracy

1323
00:57:34,010 --> 00:57:32,250
theorists in America and Britain a

1324
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:34,020
fairly safe from their governments I

1325
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:37,890
mean one of the things I put into an

1326
00:57:41,450 --> 00:57:38,730
after I wrote for The Wall Street

1327
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:41,460
Journal was that it was it seemed to be

1328
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:43,170
a fact that despite the fact that the

1329
00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:44,970
spirit of fear is were the people who

1330
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:47,430
had discovered the supposed truth and

1331
00:57:51,890 --> 00:57:49,290
were proving it about these people in

1332
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:51,900
power who were capable of any act that

1333
00:57:56,330 --> 00:57:54,000
had despicable none of them have

1334
00:57:57,770 --> 00:57:56,340
actually been killed themselves The Wall

1335
00:57:59,690 --> 00:57:57,780
Street Journal were rather worried that

1336
00:58:01,300 --> 00:57:59,700
I was inciting people to kill conspiracy

1337
00:58:03,650 --> 00:58:01,310
theorists and maybe tone down that

1338
00:58:05,930 --> 00:58:03,660
sentence it sounds to me like you don't

1339
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:05,940
really expect to convince any any

1340
00:58:12,380 --> 00:58:09,570
conspiracy theorist well actually I've

1341
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:12,390
had several communications I mean emails

1342
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:14,400
and letters from people saying they have

1343
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:16,290
changed their minds as a result of

1344
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:18,090
reading the book I had to say I was a

1345
00:58:22,070 --> 00:58:20,310
bit surprised because on the whole if

1346
00:58:23,630 --> 00:58:22,080
you believe in conspiracy theories and

1347
00:58:26,780 --> 00:58:23,640
you're presented with a book that says

1348
00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:26,790
that at the outset that this is a partly

1349
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:29,250
of debunking exercise most conspiracy

1350
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:30,960
theories I'm not going to want to read

1351
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:34,050
it but some people do you know I mean

1352
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:35,730
some people who believe in conspiracy

1353
00:58:41,170 --> 00:58:37,890
theories are genuinely open-minded kind

1354
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:41,180
of questing thinkers who just not really

1355
00:58:45,770 --> 00:58:42,990
manage that that man to kind of

1356
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,780
calculate reality and the odds on

1357
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:47,520
reality and they're not had you know

1358
00:58:51,260 --> 00:58:50,160
they have a skeptical cast of mind but

1359
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:51,270
they've not really applied their

1360
00:58:56,270 --> 00:58:53,850
skepticism with any kind of rigor and

1361
00:58:58,070 --> 00:58:56,280
everyone again I'd have and it's been

1362
00:58:59,390 --> 00:58:58,080
immensely encouraging got something like

1363
00:59:01,220 --> 00:58:59,400
that read the book and said changed my

1364
00:59:04,220 --> 00:59:01,230
mind as a result of it now I don't

1365
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:04,230
expect that to be a huge number but you

1366
00:59:09,730 --> 00:59:07,440
know I mean you know the kind of as a

1367
00:59:12,530 --> 00:59:09,740
skeptic yourself and always good yeah

1368
00:59:13,660 --> 00:59:12,540
the pleasure of the one person who says

1369
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:13,670
that to you it will the wretch

1370
00:59:18,230 --> 00:59:16,290
absolutely the thing is with regards to

1371
00:59:21,230 --> 00:59:18,240
that is that very often you expect

1372
00:59:23,540 --> 00:59:21,240
conspiracy theorists to take the general

1373
00:59:25,580 --> 00:59:23,550
line of conspiracies which is evidence

1374
00:59:28,220 --> 00:59:25,590
against the conspiracy is evidence of

1375
00:59:30,950 --> 00:59:28,230
the conspiracy so a book like yours

1376
00:59:32,450 --> 00:59:30,960
could actually make some people stronger

1377
00:59:34,070 --> 00:59:32,460
in their beliefs because he is there's

1378
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:34,080
this important journalist writing a book

1379
00:59:36,349 --> 00:59:34,410
with

1380
00:59:42,470 --> 00:59:36,359
this evidence in dedicating 300 pages

1381
00:59:43,789 --> 00:59:42,480
tooo it must be true um political I mean

1382
00:59:45,770 --> 00:59:43,799
one of the things I love about modern

1383
00:59:47,809 --> 00:59:45,780
conspiracy theories is that increasingly

1384
00:59:50,569 --> 00:59:47,819
they kind of have to take on the

1385
00:59:52,849 --> 00:59:50,579
appearance of scholarship and that means

1386
00:59:54,799 --> 00:59:52,859
that if you're person who write is a

1387
00:59:57,049 --> 00:59:54,809
professor as in the case of david ray

1388
01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:57,059
griffin who's miss theologian is now

1389
01:00:03,500 --> 01:00:00,660
written eight books about 911 and it's

1390
01:00:06,620 --> 01:00:03,510
packed full of footnotes then that per

1391
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:06,630
se constitutes scholarship because it

1392
01:00:10,339 --> 01:00:08,640
has scholarships currently appears now

1393
01:00:11,839 --> 01:00:10,349
what is actually in the book and what

1394
01:00:14,270 --> 01:00:11,849
the footnotes referred to might be

1395
01:00:16,220 --> 01:00:14,280
absolute rubbish but as long as it looks

1396
01:00:17,930 --> 01:00:16,230
like something like it then you can

1397
01:00:19,250 --> 01:00:17,940
think that it is and I think it's

1398
01:00:21,380 --> 01:00:19,260
absolutely right i mean the point that

1399
01:00:23,690 --> 01:00:21,390
you're making when i first saw the

1400
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:23,700
documentaries on the BBC that the Holy

1401
01:00:29,529 --> 01:00:27,359
Blood Holy Grail were based on and that

1402
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:29,539
led up to the famous Da Vinci Code

1403
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:31,650
introduction from Dan Brown remember at

1404
01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:32,970
the beginning of in Chicago when he said

1405
01:00:36,980 --> 01:00:34,530
a number of the things in this book are

1406
01:00:38,329 --> 01:00:36,990
actually true and then goes on to

1407
01:00:41,779 --> 01:00:38,339
enumerate a number of things which

1408
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:41,789
complete rubbish and like he's got them

1409
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:43,410
largely from the Holy Blood Holy Grail

1410
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:45,510
I'm Holy Blood Holy Grail was written by

1411
01:00:51,769 --> 01:00:47,970
people who created these documentaries

1412
01:00:54,620 --> 01:00:51,779
with BBC television in its history and

1413
01:00:57,230 --> 01:00:54,630
archaeology series called Chronicle now

1414
01:00:59,420 --> 01:00:57,240
I think we were entitled to believe and

1415
01:01:01,430 --> 01:00:59,430
I did as a teenager that it cut it was

1416
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:01,440
on the BBC and because it was one of the

1417
01:01:07,579 --> 01:01:04,010
BBC's leading programs it was true I

1418
01:01:09,890 --> 01:01:07,589
thought that the man presenting it must

1419
01:01:12,019 --> 01:01:09,900
be a historian I did not realize that he

1420
01:01:14,329 --> 01:01:12,029
was actually a TV script writer for a

1421
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:14,339
science fiction series but he was on

1422
01:01:17,690 --> 01:01:16,079
television it's like you know it's it's

1423
01:01:19,670 --> 01:01:17,700
in the paper so it must be true I guess

1424
01:01:22,370 --> 01:01:19,680
it's the same with television that's why

1425
01:01:24,109 --> 01:01:22,380
we get these appetites sometimes for a

1426
01:01:26,089 --> 01:01:24,119
lot of conspirators I mean I give you an

1427
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:26,099
example and I think I'm right in saying

1428
01:01:30,740 --> 01:01:28,559
that when it comes to the bombing of the

1429
01:01:34,359 --> 01:01:30,750
USS liberty the air attack on the USS

1430
01:01:36,349 --> 01:01:34,369
liberty in 1967 by the Israelis the only

1431
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:36,359
documentaries that have been shown our

1432
01:01:43,250 --> 01:01:39,170
documentaries claiming it was conspiracy

1433
01:01:45,289 --> 01:01:43,260
nobody had ever I mean as ever I believe

1434
01:01:47,089 --> 01:01:45,299
made the documentary showing the truth

1435
01:01:47,700 --> 01:01:47,099
what I think is almost certainly the

1436
01:01:50,370 --> 01:01:47,710
truth

1437
01:01:52,589 --> 01:01:50,380
about it which was that it was a case of

1438
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:52,599
mistaken identity now I wanted to ask

1439
01:01:58,440 --> 01:01:55,210
you what is it about conspiracy theories

1440
01:02:00,870 --> 01:01:58,450
because there are people who are not

1441
01:02:02,190 --> 01:02:00,880
only self-professed skeptics like Jim

1442
01:02:03,660 --> 01:02:02,200
that you mentioned in the last chapter

1443
01:02:06,690 --> 01:02:03,670
the guy who was with you in this call

1444
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:06,700
board but we're really very skeptical in

1445
01:02:11,609 --> 01:02:09,490
many areas of if but they buy into one

1446
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:11,619
very specific conspiracy conspiracy

1447
01:02:15,810 --> 01:02:14,050
theory it might even love off other

1448
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:15,820
conspiracy theories and would definitely

1449
01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:18,160
have a general skeptical attitude but

1450
01:02:24,630 --> 01:02:20,950
this one pc theory just they just really

1451
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:24,640
bad this guy that you mentioned i was an

1452
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:25,810
interesting kind of skeptic because

1453
01:02:29,820 --> 01:02:27,730
actually he wasn't a skeptic at all but

1454
01:02:33,150 --> 01:02:29,830
it was a kind of it was a former self

1455
01:02:36,089 --> 01:02:33,160
description he didn't believe him that

1456
01:02:40,079 --> 01:02:36,099
the authorities told him now that he's

1457
01:02:41,460 --> 01:02:40,089
not a skeptical position a skeptical

1458
01:02:44,070 --> 01:02:41,470
position does not start off on the

1459
01:02:45,839 --> 01:02:44,080
position of i'm always being lied to a

1460
01:02:47,370 --> 01:02:45,849
skeptic because you might not be being

1461
01:02:49,349 --> 01:02:47,380
lied to it's perfectly reasonable to

1462
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:49,359
expect in quite a lot of situations that

1463
01:02:54,150 --> 01:02:50,710
you might be telling that would be told

1464
01:02:58,109 --> 01:02:54,160
the truth secondly he was incredibly

1465
01:03:00,870 --> 01:02:58,119
credulous when it came to theories which

1466
01:03:02,550 --> 01:03:00,880
which contradicted what he regards being

1467
01:03:04,349 --> 01:03:02,560
the official view argument and give you

1468
01:03:08,099 --> 01:03:04,359
an example with this particular America

1469
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:08,109
which I give him the book he believed he

1470
01:03:14,250 --> 01:03:10,930
will firmly believe that people who did

1471
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:14,260
mental illusions what actually mind

1472
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:16,720
reader's you know he told me in this

1473
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:18,490
case about her this mind reader he was

1474
01:03:22,140 --> 01:03:19,690
actually convince Archie going because a

1475
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:22,150
real my I said to him look there's two

1476
01:03:25,980 --> 01:03:23,770
things here firstly when you see a

1477
01:03:27,710 --> 01:03:25,990
magician swartland heart don't think

1478
01:03:31,290 --> 01:03:27,720
she's really been sawed in half do you

1479
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:31,300
you know there's a trick and the fact is

1480
01:03:34,740 --> 01:03:32,890
it's a brilliant trick you don't know

1481
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:34,750
how it's done but you know it's a trick

1482
01:03:39,390 --> 01:03:37,210
I said well exactly the same happens

1483
01:03:42,210 --> 01:03:39,400
when you get one of these mental

1484
01:03:44,550 --> 01:03:42,220
illusionist I sell other thing is the

1485
01:03:46,140 --> 01:03:44,560
clue lies in the word illusionists

1486
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:46,150
that's why they call themselves

1487
01:03:51,599 --> 01:03:48,240
illusionist the cause it's an illusion

1488
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:51,609
if you want to believe its clue in other

1489
01:03:56,130 --> 01:03:54,250
words he was no kind of a skeptic he was

1490
01:03:58,530 --> 01:03:56,140
actually even less he's even less

1491
01:03:59,900 --> 01:03:58,540
skeptical than the people invited but in

1492
01:04:02,630 --> 01:03:59,910
his mind

1493
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:02,640
his total lack of skepticism or emerged

1494
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:05,010
from his room his kind of self hara

1495
01:04:09,950 --> 01:04:07,770
lysing notion of himself as a skeptic is

1496
01:04:12,049 --> 01:04:09,960
that that's why i actually said not only

1497
01:04:13,370 --> 01:04:12,059
people like him would self-professed

1498
01:04:15,589 --> 01:04:13,380
skeptics but people who are really

1499
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:15,599
actually actually skeptical in their

1500
01:04:19,279 --> 01:04:17,730
attitude I do make that distinction

1501
01:04:21,319 --> 01:04:19,289
because I do know that a lot of people

1502
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:21,329
will say something like you know I'm

1503
01:04:27,470 --> 01:04:23,400
skeptical in general or I used to be a

1504
01:04:29,329 --> 01:04:27,480
skeptic but we hear that a lot but I'm

1505
01:04:31,819 --> 01:04:29,339
actually wondering about a skeptics do

1506
01:04:33,500 --> 01:04:31,829
you encounter that yeah I think I mean

1507
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:33,510
you can see you can feel away why it

1508
01:04:38,799 --> 01:04:35,970
happens I mean because governments do

1509
01:04:41,870 --> 01:04:38,809
sometimes lie or you know companies

1510
01:04:44,299 --> 01:04:41,880
exaggerated people cover things up and

1511
01:04:45,799 --> 01:04:44,309
so on now you can decide whether or not

1512
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:45,809
you think that those such things are

1513
01:04:50,569 --> 01:04:49,410
lying and deceits are habitual and you

1514
01:04:52,099 --> 01:04:50,579
can decide whether or not you think

1515
01:04:53,240 --> 01:04:52,109
you're likely to get away with them or

1516
01:04:55,130 --> 01:04:53,250
whether things are too complicated

1517
01:04:57,650 --> 01:04:55,140
people the people actually to have

1518
01:05:00,799 --> 01:04:57,660
planned out and so on I mean you know

1519
01:05:03,799 --> 01:05:00,809
that's in that sometimes sometimes in

1520
01:05:05,660 --> 01:05:03,809
the mix you can be skeptical about the

1521
01:05:08,569 --> 01:05:05,670
claims that people make for themselves

1522
01:05:11,120 --> 01:05:08,579
and so on but being skeptical means

1523
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:11,130
saying I want to either examine this

1524
01:05:16,970 --> 01:05:14,490
myself or this is as near as I can get

1525
01:05:19,279 --> 01:05:16,980
given the time I have available and give

1526
01:05:20,779 --> 01:05:19,289
them what I think I know about expertise

1527
01:05:24,380 --> 01:05:20,789
and so on and what my experience tells

1528
01:05:26,329 --> 01:05:24,390
me to what I to what's going on I mean

1529
01:05:28,039 --> 01:05:26,339
you know we face a whole series of

1530
01:05:29,779 --> 01:05:28,049
classic situations like this in a

1531
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:29,789
technologically very complete and

1532
01:05:34,010 --> 01:05:31,680
scientifically very complicated world

1533
01:05:35,450 --> 01:05:34,020
what are we going to take on trust and

1534
01:05:37,700 --> 01:05:35,460
what are we not going to take on trust

1535
01:05:39,410 --> 01:05:37,710
and why will we do it when we try to

1536
01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:39,420
assess let's say whether or not a

1537
01:05:44,809 --> 01:05:41,970
vaccine has some of the effects of the

1538
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:44,819
claim for it by some people we're not

1539
01:05:49,069 --> 01:05:47,010
paying for ourselves going to be able to

1540
01:05:52,039 --> 01:05:49,079
step into the laboratory put on the

1541
01:05:54,829 --> 01:05:52,049
white codes Don the mantle of the

1542
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:54,839
expertise and so right we've tested it

1543
01:05:58,279 --> 01:05:56,250
for ourselves and we can tell you what

1544
01:06:01,160 --> 01:05:58,289
the truth is we're going to have to do a

1545
01:06:03,559 --> 01:06:01,170
much for shortened version of that which

1546
01:06:05,269 --> 01:06:03,569
involves us kind of assessing within the

1547
01:06:07,819 --> 01:06:05,279
time that we have to do it the various

1548
01:06:08,930 --> 01:06:07,829
arguments and the various expertise the

1549
01:06:10,260 --> 01:06:08,940
people involved in order to take a

1550
01:06:12,030 --> 01:06:10,270
position on it

1551
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:12,040
that's you know that's where the true

1552
01:06:16,890 --> 01:06:14,410
skeptic must add the true skeptic is not

1553
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:16,900
somebody who says I speak to achieve a

1554
01:06:20,670 --> 01:06:18,610
state of Olympian knowledge of

1555
01:06:22,410 --> 01:06:20,680
everything this is impossible absolutely

1556
01:06:24,420 --> 01:06:22,420
now we we've started talking about

1557
01:06:27,090 --> 01:06:24,430
skeptics and I wanted to know that do

1558
01:06:29,850 --> 01:06:27,100
you think of yourself as a skeptic might

1559
01:06:35,940 --> 01:06:29,860
most like most of us I regard myself as

1560
01:06:38,730 --> 01:06:35,950
the one true skeptic okay there we all

1561
01:06:41,610 --> 01:06:38,740
you know what you know you know yes I do

1562
01:06:45,140 --> 01:06:41,620
i do I think I'm increasingly a skeptic

1563
01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:45,150
as I become more if you like I mean I i

1564
01:06:48,690 --> 01:06:46,990
started off fairly doctrinaire

1565
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:48,700
politically because that was the that

1566
01:06:56,850 --> 01:06:52,810
was my inheritance and I think that

1567
01:07:00,180 --> 01:06:56,860
experience has led me to try and form if

1568
01:07:03,110 --> 01:07:00,190
you like a escape a properly skeptical

1569
01:07:07,710 --> 01:07:03,120
cast of mine including knowing when I

1570
01:07:09,420 --> 01:07:07,720
may need to take things on trust because

1571
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:09,430
that's important too when I just had you

1572
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:12,730
know to put it I mean it's kind of

1573
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:14,650
obvious context when you step into an

1574
01:07:18,330 --> 01:07:15,910
error play and so when you put

1575
01:07:20,010 --> 01:07:18,340
yourselves in the hands of the pilot you

1576
01:07:21,780 --> 01:07:20,020
choose to do this dozens of times over

1577
01:07:23,430 --> 01:07:21,790
this is a rational thing to do otherwise

1578
01:07:25,950 --> 01:07:23,440
we couldn't actually achieve anything ah

1579
01:07:28,650 --> 01:07:25,960
but you know if your worst sort of a

1580
01:07:30,570 --> 01:07:28,660
series of extremely bad air accidents

1581
01:07:33,000 --> 01:07:30,580
which were unexplained and so on you

1582
01:07:35,190 --> 01:07:33,010
might it might be a less obvious thing

1583
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:35,200
to do so now said so in other words I

1584
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:37,690
think of myself as a proper skeptic I

1585
01:07:42,450 --> 01:07:40,450
mean I have to say my sis came to being

1586
01:07:45,540 --> 01:07:42,460
a great skeptic would be strengthened if

1587
01:07:48,810 --> 01:07:45,550
I had more scientific knowledge I mean

1588
01:07:50,340 --> 01:07:48,820
I'm a classic product of the division

1589
01:07:53,010 --> 01:07:50,350
between the arts and the science

1590
01:07:56,190 --> 01:07:53,020
Sciences in the sense that I had nearly

1591
01:07:59,810 --> 01:07:56,200
no scientific training whatsoever and I

1592
01:08:03,780 --> 01:07:59,820
have had to look at people who I trust

1593
01:08:07,470 --> 01:08:03,790
whose instincts and whose whose approach

1594
01:08:09,630 --> 01:08:07,480
to life seems to me to to be properly

1595
01:08:11,850 --> 01:08:09,640
critical in order to in a sense kind of

1596
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:11,860
understand where I might appear on that

1597
01:08:15,690 --> 01:08:13,930
spectrum let's take kind of some of that

1598
01:08:18,269 --> 01:08:15,700
Ben Goldacre who somebody I admire very

1599
01:08:20,820 --> 01:08:18,279
much and people like him I don't know

1600
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:20,830
the things that Ben knows and

1601
01:08:26,340 --> 01:08:24,010
consequently I in a way you know so in a

1602
01:08:28,500 --> 01:08:26,350
way being a skeptic having a skeptics

1603
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:28,510
movement partially means a little

1604
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:30,850
allowing bits of it to have expertise

1605
01:08:34,290 --> 01:08:32,890
for you which is can seem like a

1606
01:08:36,120 --> 01:08:34,300
slightly unscripted cool thing to do

1607
01:08:37,829 --> 01:08:36,130
before we end there's there's one thing

1608
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:37,839
I wanted to ask you maybe a bit of

1609
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:39,850
advice what one thing that skeptics

1610
01:08:44,490 --> 01:08:42,370
often find difficulties when dealing

1611
01:08:46,860 --> 01:08:44,500
with true believers is how to treat them

1612
01:08:50,070 --> 01:08:46,870
with respect because often their beliefs

1613
01:08:52,230 --> 01:08:50,080
are so patently ridiculous that but you

1614
01:08:54,300 --> 01:08:52,240
can't help but you know lose a bit of

1615
01:08:57,540 --> 01:08:54,310
respect now your book is is very

1616
01:09:00,450 --> 01:08:57,550
entertaining often funny but it is also

1617
01:09:02,250 --> 01:09:00,460
very detailed and and no no point in

1618
01:09:04,829 --> 01:09:02,260
time through the book do you dismiss

1619
01:09:08,490 --> 01:09:04,839
claims on appearance only now can you

1620
01:09:10,110 --> 01:09:08,500
suggest to skeptics out there how one

1621
01:09:12,810 --> 01:09:10,120
might be respectful of a conspiracy

1622
01:09:14,610 --> 01:09:12,820
theorist without writing a 300 page book

1623
01:09:17,490 --> 01:09:14,620
because obviously not all of us can do

1624
01:09:20,820 --> 01:09:17,500
that what I'm in the first point is as I

1625
01:09:22,829 --> 01:09:20,830
referred to earlier I had been another

1626
01:09:24,930 --> 01:09:22,839
conspiracy theorist in the sense of kind

1627
01:09:26,910 --> 01:09:24,940
of active in it but I believer in

1628
01:09:29,310 --> 01:09:26,920
certain conspiracy theories you know

1629
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:29,320
maybe in the case of JFK because I once

1630
01:09:33,870 --> 01:09:31,570
or documentary which mentioned the magic

1631
01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:33,880
bullet and so I'm also because i found

1632
01:09:38,430 --> 01:09:35,230
the idea of the conspiracy a more

1633
01:09:41,190 --> 01:09:38,440
interesting story i liked actually like

1634
01:09:42,210 --> 01:09:41,200
the story better it was more satisfying

1635
01:09:44,070 --> 01:09:42,220
i mean that's the one of the things to

1636
01:09:46,890 --> 01:09:44,080
remember about quite a lot of these

1637
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:46,900
stories is that they are actually better

1638
01:09:51,780 --> 01:09:49,570
stories than the truth and a lot of us a

1639
01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:51,790
lot of the time are attracted to the

1640
01:09:55,410 --> 01:09:53,710
better story than the truth i mean let

1641
01:09:57,270 --> 01:09:55,420
me give you a clean the example of the

1642
01:09:59,640 --> 01:09:57,280
way we tell stories about ourselves and

1643
01:10:00,870 --> 01:09:59,650
it was pointed out to me by a number of

1644
01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:00,880
friends of mine who work in

1645
01:10:06,300 --> 01:10:04,090
psychoanalysis or psychotherapy people

1646
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:06,310
are continuously giving back histories

1647
01:10:11,220 --> 01:10:07,930
to things like they're since their

1648
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:11,230
illnesses or anthropomorphizing the

1649
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:13,330
weather you know the way it always rains

1650
01:10:17,670 --> 01:10:15,490
on my birthday unless ticket and

1651
01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:17,680
football supporters for instance the

1652
01:10:22,740 --> 01:10:19,660
referee doesn't like my team my team

1653
01:10:25,740 --> 01:10:22,750
always gets the bad decisions against it

1654
01:10:27,810 --> 01:10:25,750
or we always are scored against in the

1655
01:10:31,650 --> 01:10:27,820
last minute and so on a whole series of

1656
01:10:34,620 --> 01:10:31,660
notions in which we if you like impose a

1657
01:10:37,370 --> 01:10:34,630
narrative and an agency

1658
01:10:40,410 --> 01:10:37,380
on actually a series of fairly random

1659
01:10:43,410 --> 01:10:40,420
events so another words what so you have

1660
01:10:45,930 --> 01:10:43,420
respected people because we all do it if

1661
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:45,940
we recognized within ourselves always

1662
01:10:50,790 --> 01:10:48,130
the tendency and the desire for the

1663
01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:50,800
better narrative and for faith I think

1664
01:10:55,350 --> 01:10:52,510
it becomes much easier to deal with

1665
01:10:57,629 --> 01:10:55,360
people who who who take that the next

1666
01:11:00,300 --> 01:10:57,639
stage forward and make those a kind of

1667
01:11:02,490 --> 01:11:00,310
systematic part of their lives in other

1668
01:11:04,590 --> 01:11:02,500
word for just doing what we do but more

1669
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:04,600
so now of course sometimes the thing

1670
01:11:11,550 --> 01:11:06,730
becomes more urgent we'll take the

1671
01:11:13,950 --> 01:11:11,560
example of Jim Carrey and MMR Jim Carrey

1672
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:13,960
has decided to make a major campaign

1673
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:16,210
against the MMR vaccine as if he's

1674
01:11:21,209 --> 01:11:18,850
successful kids will die of measles who

1675
01:11:24,030 --> 01:11:21,219
don't need to die you need to be very

1676
01:11:26,430 --> 01:11:24,040
very firm with Jim Carrey and people

1677
01:11:29,310 --> 01:11:26,440
like him about the consequences of his

1678
01:11:31,470 --> 01:11:29,320
way of thinking I mean but you also

1679
01:11:33,570 --> 01:11:31,480
recognize that it partially comes out of

1680
01:11:36,149 --> 01:11:33,580
the experience that his girlfriend had

1681
01:11:38,790 --> 01:11:36,159
with having an autistic child and so on

1682
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:38,800
and the desire that we have have an

1683
01:11:42,780 --> 01:11:41,290
overarching and clear explanation for

1684
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:42,790
the catastrophes that happen to this

1685
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:45,610
they've done out of time I would like to

1686
01:11:49,140 --> 01:11:47,170
thank you very much first of all for a

1687
01:11:51,419 --> 01:11:49,150
very enjoyable and informative book and

1688
01:11:53,760 --> 01:11:51,429
for joining me on the skeptics on

1689
01:12:00,250 --> 01:11:53,770
podcast thank you very much David thank

1690
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:09,379
you

1691
01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:13,810
zone now a couple of our little

1692
01:12:19,439 --> 01:12:17,010
announcements before we go before I go

1693
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:19,449
people have been writing in about Stefan

1694
01:12:23,069 --> 01:12:21,250
where's Stefan where Stefan they say

1695
01:12:25,410 --> 01:12:23,079
Stefan has not been very well lately

1696
01:12:27,660 --> 01:12:25,420
he's much better now and I think he

1697
01:12:30,750 --> 01:12:27,670
should be on deck for next week's

1698
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:30,760
episode get well quick Stefan I'd also

1699
01:12:37,500 --> 01:12:34,690
like to thank very much Seth Wilson who

1700
01:12:38,970 --> 01:12:37,510
wrote to me saying what he's doing what

1701
01:12:42,419 --> 01:12:38,980
he's up to whilst listening to the

1702
01:12:45,540 --> 01:12:42,429
skeptic zone and he has a most amazing

1703
01:12:49,319 --> 01:12:45,550
cider I checked it out it's really

1704
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:49,329
interesting Seth does all sorts of crazy

1705
01:12:56,010 --> 01:12:52,690
things with modelling body parts for

1706
01:13:00,720 --> 01:12:56,020
medical or surgical simulators it's just

1707
01:13:07,229 --> 01:13:00,730
fascinating check his site out at ww RL

1708
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:07,239
escort com that's re al scul PT calm

1709
01:13:12,569 --> 01:13:10,449
thanks Seth I really I really got a kick

1710
01:13:15,450 --> 01:13:12,579
out of looking at your website great

1711
01:13:18,060 --> 01:13:15,460
work also don't forget to check out

1712
01:13:22,140 --> 01:13:18,070
Rachel Dunlop's blog the skeptics book

1713
01:13:24,510 --> 01:13:22,150
of poo poo skeptics book calm for the

1714
01:13:26,490 --> 01:13:24,520
latest information about the vaccination

1715
01:13:30,020 --> 01:13:26,500
scare here in Australia with the flu

1716
01:13:33,300 --> 01:13:30,030
vaccine very interesting and finally

1717
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:33,310
there's been some controversy lately on

1718
01:13:40,169 --> 01:13:35,530
the skeptics guide to the universe about

1719
01:13:45,660 --> 01:13:40,179
a certain ah imitation of Samuel

1720
01:13:48,629 --> 01:13:45,670
Hahnemann and Brian Dunning it's a bit

1721
01:13:50,220 --> 01:13:48,639
of a complicated story apparently some

1722
01:13:51,959 --> 01:13:50,230
people think that Brian Dunning is the

1723
01:13:53,370 --> 01:13:51,969
voice of Samuel Hahnemann as heard on

1724
01:13:55,830 --> 01:13:53,380
the skeptics oh and some people thought

1725
01:14:01,919 --> 01:13:55,840
it was all sorts of other people but I'm

1726
01:14:03,689 --> 01:14:01,929
here to tell you it wasn't O'Brien I'm

1727
01:14:06,990 --> 01:14:03,699
sorry people thought you were samuel

1728
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:07,000
hahnemann that's a to get back at you

1729
01:14:12,180 --> 01:14:08,530
for all those terrible Australian

1730
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:12,190
accents anyway thank you all for

1731
01:14:16,950 --> 01:14:14,290
listening to the skeptic zone thank you

1732
01:14:18,569 --> 01:14:16,960
for everybody writing in telling us what

1733
01:14:20,910 --> 01:14:18,579
you're up to while listening to the

1734
01:14:21,870 --> 01:14:20,920
skeptics and we just love it and thank

1735
01:14:24,450 --> 01:14:21,880
you to those people

1736
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:24,460
who contribute with donations or

1737
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:27,489
subscribe very much appreciated the big

1738
01:14:32,209 --> 01:14:30,310
countdown to episode 100 but until next

1739
01:14:35,129 --> 01:14:32,219
week anyway this is Richard Saunders

1740
01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:35,139
with many thanks to the skeptic zone

1741
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:42,959
you've been listening to the skeptic

1742
01:14:51,030 --> 01:14:48,010
zone visit our website at WWF digs on TV

1743
01:14:53,470 --> 01:14:51,040
for comments contacts and extra video

1744
01:15:04,890 --> 01:14:53,480
reports